HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 1965 - DA.C
 

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Old 05-23-2020, 11:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 1965

Some time ago, I’d been looking at getting a Super Sabre for some time, but as pretty as some of the older releases are, I wanted a combat vet. This is certainly the most modest natural finish F100 HM have released, but the history makes it interesting.





The Super Sabre was the world’s first operational military jet capable of sustained horizontal supersonic flight. Even though it looks like a fairly natural evolution of earlier swept wing designs such as North American’s own F86 Sabre, it had to be a completely different beast. Development had not yet reached the stage where an easy compromise could be reached between the requirements for transonic (close to the speed of sound, where various dangerous buildups occur), supersonic and a reasonable take-off and landing speed. As a result, the F86 A that entered service in 1954 was fast, but incredibly dangerous. The vertical stabilizer was too small and caused all manner of stability problems and crashes. Flying supersonic meant the use of new afterburner technology, that still required work. Super Sabre’s frequently suffered from compression stalls at the worst possible moments. On top of all this, landings had to take place at very high speed. On paper, stall speed was 158 Knots, but the aircraft became almost uncontrollable long before that speed. As a result practical landing speeds were extremely high, requiring a very long runway. The pilot often had to choose between landing in a controlled crash or risking damage to the gear or tires.



In 1954, it may have seemed worthwhile for an aircraft that could reach Mach 1.3, and the Russians had their own problems with the equivalent Mig 19 introduced in 1955, but such was the pace of development that the experimental Skyrocket would breach Mach 2 already in 1953 and the X-2 would go all the way to Mach 3 in 1956.





Production aircraft would soon follow. Despite being a navy aircraft, the F8 Crusader, introduced in 1957, smashed all previous speed records just a few years later, while the air force would get its own Mach 2 aircraft with the F105 and the equally deadly F104 in 1958. And again just a few years later, the almighty Phantom and F106 would leave them all in the dust.

The F100 was in fact almost obsolete before its time and certainly long before it became better understood and safer to fly. As such it was developed into more of an all-rounder, taking on a close support role with the definitive F100D. In the early years of the Vietnam war they were still strangely used as escorts for the Thunderchiefs, despite being slower. This particular aircraft was being flown by Don Kilgus in such a role in early 1965. His flight was covering an F105 strike package that day and he spotted two Mig 17’s going after them. He made a very fast dive on one of the migs and tore big chunks out if it with his 20mm cannons before he had to pull out of his dive and lost sight of the Mig. As a result, this kill is only classified as a “probable”.






Very soon after the F 100 would be replaced in the escort role by the F4 and the Super Sabre would instead develop a niche as a rapid response ground support aircraft as at low altitude it was still comparatively fast. It performed this last role with distinction, flying thousands of sorties, despite the advanced age of the design.





On to the model, it’s a well-used mold that has stood up reasonably well. However, I have yet to see one in a natural finish without imperfections in the paint and this one was no exception. Fortunately they were underneath.



The gear fit, but just wouldn’t stay in place. As with most of HM’s current offer, these are made in Bangladesh, so it’s possible the earlier ones are better.

















Here it is with my other early jets.

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Old 05-25-2020, 05:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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The Super Sabre was the world’s first operational military jet capable of sustained horizontal supersonic flight.
That's an interesting statement. The MiG-19 was first to fly, a year earlier. Now although the F-100 officially entered USAF service in September 1954 it had been very unwisely rushed into service in the near psychotic manner that characterised a good deal of American thought during that period. Unsurprisingly (no, make that surprisingly, someone finally saw sense), they were grounded two months later. So the F-100 did not really become operational until a year after the initial blunder in September 1955. Now if that had been the Soviets, there is no way we'd have let that one slide.

Meanwhile, the MiG-19, having also had a good deal of development difficulty, finally entered Soviet service in July 1955.

Given all that, I'm not sure that the title of "the world’s first operational military jet capable of sustained horizontal supersonic flight", really belongs to the F-100. That said, it's really just BS for the civilian press. Sustained you say. For how long?
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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That's an interesting statement. The MiG-19 was first to fly, a year earlier. Now although the F-100 officially entered USAF service in September 1954 it had been very unwisely rushed into service in the near psychotic manner that characterised a good deal of American thought during that period. Unsurprisingly (no, make that surprisingly, someone finally saw sense), they were grounded two months later. So the F-100 did not really become operational until a year after the initial blunder in September 1955. Now if that had been the Soviets, there is no way we'd have let that one slide.

Meanwhile, the MiG-19, having also had a good deal of development difficulty, finally entered Soviet service in July 1955.

Given all that, I'm not sure that the title of "the world’s first operational military jet capable of sustained horizontal supersonic flight", really belongs to the F-100. That said, it's really just BS for the civilian press. Sustained you say. For how long?
If you read the subsequent paragraph, I would say we're actually in agreement over the fact the Super Sabre was rushed into service too early. And yes the "first" moniker is largely irrelevant other than as a PR tool, because such was the pace of development that the Russians would soon have the Mig 19 in operational use and within a few years operational jets would be doing Mach 2 anyway.

"Sustained"may not be the ideal choice of words, but basically it means an aircraft that can achieve supersonic speed under its own power horizontally without having to go into a dive. Some Sabre models could reach supersonic speeds in a dive, but couldn't "sustain" it after pulling out of the dive.

What it doesn't mean is that the Super Sabre could comfortably cruise along at supersonic speeds for any more than short bursts as even in the later improved models it would require burning huge amounts of fuel in full afterburner.
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Old 05-25-2020, 10:33 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

Yep, I wasn’t having a go at your use of the word sustained Esvees. I think it’s the one North American, the USAF and the pundits used at the time as part of the never ending propaganda war. I think we both agree that it conveys a rather false impression.

As a retired serviceman I feel it’s important to keep both sides of the record straight, and the same goes for discussions over current events. Our populations and service people are not well served by paranoid scare mongering; even though certain politician’s careers, government agency budgets and manufacturer’s profits undoubtedly are.
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Old 05-25-2020, 03:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

Much American thought and decision-making at the time was "psychotic?"

I suppose you must therefore think that men like Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman (Commanders-in-Chief when the F-100 was designed and flight tested) and Nate Twining (the USAF Chief of Staff who approved the F-100's service entry) were "psychotic"? Strangely, I don't see any psychotics among those three.

How about legendary test pilots like Yeager, Crossfield, Hoover and Welch (all of whom flew the YF-100 and F-100A)? How about gifted designers like Ed Schmued (P-51/F-86/F-100) or Harrison Storms (P-51/F-86/F-100/XB-70 and Apollo S-II and CSM)?

I don't see any psychotics hiding among those gentlemen, either. They are - deservedly - some of the most distinguished names in aviation history.

In 1954, the Korean armistice was only one year old (more than 50,000 U.S. dead). The Cold War arms race was well underway (first H-bomb test in 1952) and geopolitical tensions were very high. Risks that would be considered unacceptable today were routinely accepted by designers, test pilots and operational pilots in the United States and in the USSR.

The F-100 design was at or beyond the state-of-the-art in many areas. Supersonic inlets, afterburning turbojets, the aeroelastic behavior of thin, swept wings and inertia coupling were all new technologies (or phenomena) and all of them were much less than fully mature or well understood on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

The decision to hand the F-100 over to operational USAF squadrons in 1954 was a thoroughly considered, calculated risk. That it turned out to be mistaken was a tragedy. The decision had to be (and quickly was) reversed. But there was never any "psychosis" involved in either decision.

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Old 05-25-2020, 03:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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Originally Posted by OnlyWayToFly View Post
Much American thought and decision-making at the time was "psychotic?"

I suppose you must therefore think that men like Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman (Commanders-in-Chief when the F-100 was designed and flight tested) and Nate Twining (the USAF Chief of Staff who approved the F-100's service entry) were "psychotic"? Strangely, I don't see any psychotics among those three.

How about legendary test pilots like Yeager, Crossfield, Hoover and Welch (all of whom flew the YF-100 and F-100A)? How about gifted designers like Ed Schmued (P-51/F-86) or Harrison Storms (P-51, F-86, F-100, XB-70 and Apollo SII and CSM)?

I don't see any psychotics hiding among those gentlemen, either. They are - deservedly - some of the most distinguished names in aviation history.

In 1954, the Korean armistice was only one year old (more than 50,000 U.S. dead). The Cold War arms race was well underway (first H-bomb test in 1952) and geopolitical tensions were very high. Risks that would be considered unacceptable today were routinely accepted by designers, test pilots and operational pilots in the United States and in the USSR.

The F-100 design was at or beyond the state-of-the-art in many areas. Supersonic inlets, afterburning turbojets, the aeroelastic behavior of thin, swept wings and inertia coupling were all new technologies (or phenomena) and all of them were much less than fully mature or well understood on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

The decision to hand the F-100 over to operational USAF squadrons in 1954 was a thoroughly considered, calculated risk. That it turned out to be mistaken was a tragedy. The decision had to be (and quickly was) reversed. But there was never any "psychosis" involved in either decision.
I would not count Yeager among those- yes, he made history by breaking the sound barrier, but he's also known to be a most unpleasant piece of work & not a nice person to talk to. In fact he's known to be totally self-absorbed, selfish & completely up himself by those who've had the misfortune to meet him, & he's shunned by most people who know what he's really like.
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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I would not count Yeager among those- yes, he made history by breaking the sound barrier, but he's also known to be a most unpleasant piece of work & not a nice person to talk to. In fact he's known to be totally self-absorbed, selfish & completely up himself by those who've had the misfortune to meet him, & he's shunned by most people who know what he's really like.
Do you know General Yeager? I do.

Your characterization of him is absurd. He's a gentleman and I've always found him to be very easy to talk with. He doesn't have much tolerance for BS, but with most people he's down to earth and the complete opposite of your description. I don't know where you got the impressions you have, but every interaction I've ever had with Chuck Yeager has been pleasant.
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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Do you know General Yeager? I do.

Your characterization of him is absurd. He's a gentleman and I've always found him to be very easy to talk with. He doesn't have much tolerance for BS, but with most people he's down to earth and the complete opposite of your description. I don't know where you got the impressions you have, but every interaction I've ever had with Chuck Yeager has been pleasant.
I'm going by the reputation he has among a lot of people on this forum & the other 2 diecast aircraft forums, who have met him or know people who've met him & have very, very different opinions of him than you do- they say he's even dismissive of other WW2 aces & that he tries to claim ill due credit for himself.
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Old 05-25-2020, 04:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

I couldn't care less about second or third hand opinions people may have about General Yeager. Nor do I think that people who may have briefly met him should count for much when forming an opinion of someone's character. (As I mentioned before, he doesn't tolerate nonsense or pretense very well. That may be why some people don't like him.)

I've known Chuck Yeager since 1985 and have never heard him disparage a combat pilot of any nationality, ace or otherwise. I have heard him say many complimentary things about pilots from other nations (including some from countries that were U.S. adversaries). Nor have I ever heard him try to claim credit for anything other than his own achievements, which certainly are noteworthy.

Other people are entitled to their own opinions, but I have mine and they're based on personal experience. He's a fine man, a terrific stick and a major contributor to the development of modern aviation.
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Old Yesterday, 07:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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I couldn't care less about second or third hand opinions people may have about General Yeager. Nor do I think that people who may have briefly met him should count for much when forming an opinion of someone's character.

Other people are entitled to their own opinions, but I have mine and they're based on personal experience.
Unfortunately for you, no-one needs to know Yeager personally to be able to read. As such we are all capable of reading his many comments and forming our own valid opinions. Now, if he didn’t want people to be able to form their own opinions then he really shouldn’t make public comments in TV interviews or print; and he certainly hasn’t been shy of that. I’m absolutely certain that he’s capable of being the very picture of charm to non-threatening admirers like yourself. That is no test of a gentleman’s character. I’ll mention three examples that you may be unwilling to be aware of.

Gentlemen do not make public remarks to the press upon hearing of the death of a fellow countryman and professional rival such as those he made when he heard of Scott Crossfield’s demise. You were on the same side for Ch***t’s sake! I’m not sure if his retraction was even worse since it was probably about money. Gentlemen and retired senior officers do not slander the character of an entire allied nation’s citizens (the UK). They never stop being representatives of their nation. And finally, a gentleman would not have accepted a position on the Presidential Commission on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident and then have contributed nothing to the investigation.

Merely the tip of your good friend’s iceberg. I’ll see how you cope with it before deciding whether it’s worth my while giving any time to your earlier points. Your attitude suggests that you’re not looking for a discussion, and obviously you are entitled to your opinions.

Perhaps we’d all just better stick to toy aeroplanes.
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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

Worth your time? I retired after 40 years of professional flying and have known and flown with hundreds of other pilots, military and civilian.

I don't know what (if anything) you've flown. But I can be quite certain that you've never done anything that remotely compares to the contributions General Yeager made to aviation over the course of a long career, achievements that brought him well-deserved international renown.

General Yeager and Scott Crossfield didn't get along. That's widely known. And at some point, all of us have probably made some comments about other pilots (and people in general) that we have had reason to regret. But I can assure you, Chuck Yeager is the kind of person almost anyone would like to have as a friend. He certainly can be blunt, but he's also straightforward, honest and remarkably down to earth. If you knew him personally, you'd probably be embarrassed to have judged him so harshly from afar.

As I said earlier, others are entitled to their own opinions. Enjoy your hobby.
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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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Unfortunately for you, no-one needs to know Yeager personally to be able to read. As such we are all capable of reading his many comments and forming our own valid opinions. Now, if he didn’t want people to be able to form their own opinions then he really shouldn’t make public comments in TV interviews or print; and he certainly hasn’t been shy of that. I’m absolutely certain that he’s capable of being the very picture of charm to non-threatening admirers like yourself. That is no test of a gentleman’s character. I’ll mention three examples that you may be unwilling to be aware of.

Gentlemen do not make public remarks to the press upon hearing of the death of a fellow countryman and professional rival such as those he made when he heard of Scott Crossfield’s demise. You were on the same side for Ch***t’s sake! I’m not sure if his retraction was even worse since it was probably about money. Gentlemen and retired senior officers do not slander the character of an entire allied nation’s citizens (the UK). They never stop being representatives of their nation. And finally, a gentleman would not have accepted a position on the Presidential Commission on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident and then have contributed nothing to the investigation.

Merely the tip of your good friend’s iceberg. I’ll see how you cope with it before deciding whether it’s worth my while giving any time to your earlier points. Your attitude suggests that you’re not looking for a discussion, and obviously you are entitled to your opinions.

Perhaps we’d all just better stick to toy aeroplanes.
This. The majority of views of Gen. Yeager's personality that I've ever heard or read echo your comments.
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Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

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Worth your time? I retired after 40 years of professional flying and have known and flown with hundreds of other pilots, military and civilian.

I don't know what (if anything) you've flown. But I can be quite certain that you've never done anything that remotely compares to the contributions General Yeager made to aviation over the course of a long career, achievements that brought him well-deserved international renown.

General Yeager and Scott Crossfield didn't get along. That's widely known. And at some point, all of us have probably made some comments about other pilots (and people in general) that we have had reason to regret. But I can assure you, Chuck Yeager is the kind of person almost anyone would like to have as a friend. He certainly can be blunt, but he's also straightforward, honest and remarkably down to earth. If you knew him personally, you'd probably be embarrassed to have judged him so harshly from afar.

As I said earlier, others are entitled to their own opinions. Enjoy your hobby.
& that's no excuse not to show a little humility & compassion when he died.
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Old Yesterday, 01:14 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

General Yeager publicly stated that he was sorry about Scott Crossfield's death and I have no doubt that he meant exactly what he said. He also pointed out the obvious: At the time of his death, Crossfield was 84 years old. He was flying a single-engine, light aircraft (Cessna 210) through a known area of severe thunderstorms.

If Crossfield could speak for himself, he'd probably admit that his misjudgment of the weather played a key role in his death. To you, it may sound like Yeager's comments were callous. But what he said was completely correct and was probably intended to benefit pilots with lower levels of experience. (If something like that can happen to a guy like Scott Crossfield, it can happen to anybody.)

General Yeager always emphasized the importance of flight safety whenever he spoke to military or civilian pilots. His comments about the circumstances of Crossfield's accident were not offered in a mean-spirited or spiteful way. They were tragically accurate.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

I wondered when you'd get to the old log book comparrison chestnut. Only 35 years of professional and naval aviation in mine, but I haven't retired yet. The Yeager Crossfield comments that you refer to were the ones made after his oh so careful retraction. I have no problem at all with them. I refer to his original spiteful remarks. In fact today they are very hard (impossible?) to find. However, those of us who read them at the time remember; and what he could not do was erase people's contemporary reactions. Those can still be found, including the reaction of Crossfield's family. Embarrassed to have judged him so harshly? Believe me, I didn't even get warmed up.

But indeed, enjoy your hobby.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: HM HA2121 F100D Super Sabre, Mig 17 killer, 19

Same same. As General Yeager would say, "Fly safe, Adour."
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