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Old 06-26-2016, 08:55 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

I guess I'm five, then. Too cool a plane to miss out on!
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:49 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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I guess I'm five, then. Too cool a plane to miss out on!
Yup, and expect there will not be any further Arrow release after RL204...
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Old 06-26-2016, 09:52 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

That is AMAZING!!!! My friend is going to become a member this coming August and he wants to fly on the Stearman aircraft and he will probably get this model too
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Old 06-27-2016, 01:02 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Yup, and expect there will not be any further Arrow release after RL204...
Never know. Once there are three...I mean...there were only five... 😉
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Old 06-27-2016, 02:56 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

I bought one then 3 more
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Old 06-27-2016, 08:07 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Stock them up. They are very good investment for your retirement
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Old 06-27-2016, 08:29 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

I don't think they'll have too much trouble selling this one.
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Old 06-27-2016, 12:29 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Never know. Once there are three...I mean...there were only five... ��
True enough, but there was some hesitation for CWHM to justify a third run of the Arrow. Guess that's why they decided on limiting the RL204 release to only 1000 pieces. Perhaps if RL204 sells out quickly we might see a fourth Arrow - or even a CF-100 "Canuck"...

Actually there were six Arrows, five Mk1 versions were completed by 1959 at a cost of CAD $3.5 - 5.0 million each. RL206, Mk2 version, with lighter airframe and more powerful Orenda Iroquois engines, capable of mach2+, was 93% completed when the wrecking ball hit. I believe RL205 can be seen in the "graveyard" photo at bottom (RL204, RL203, RL201, RL205). Thought the "assembly-line" photo was pretty cool, showing RL206 and others in production...
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Old 06-27-2016, 12:33 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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I bought one then 3 more
Hey Chubbey, I'm impressed - great investment...
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:01 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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True enough, but there was some hesitation for CWHM to justify a third run of the Arrow. Guess that's why they decided on limiting the RL204 release to only 1000 pieces. Perhaps if RL204 sells out quickly we might see a fourth Arrow - or even a CF-100 "Canuck"...

Actually there were six Arrows, five Mk1 versions were completed by 1959 at a cost of CAD $3.5 - 5.0 million each. RL206, Mk2 version, with lighter airframe and more powerful Orenda Iroquois engines, capable of mach2+, was 93% completed when the wrecking ball hit. I believe RL205 can be seen in the "graveyard" photo at bottom (RL204, RL203, RL201, RL205). Thought the "assembly-line" photo was pretty cool, showing RL206 and others in production...
There were far more than five in various stages of construction. I was referring to the fact that only five were completed and flown.
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Old 06-27-2016, 03:59 PM   #111 (permalink)
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There were far more than five in various stages of construction. I was referring to the fact that only five were completed and flown.
Copy......
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:34 PM   #112 (permalink)
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"On Friday, February 20, 1959, the Canadian government ordered all work on the Arrow and the development of the Iroquois engine cancelled. Some 14,000 employees were fired immediately. Within two months, 5 superb flying machines and a more powerful 6th, which had been within days of takeoff, were ordered reduced to scrap. Also, 31 others in various stages of assembly, along with all parts, drawings, accessories, blueprints and photographs were ordered destroyed. Arrow Mk2, RL206, would be prepared for an attempt at both world speed and altitude records."
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:37 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Thanks to good old Doofisbaker
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Old 06-27-2016, 05:43 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Thanks to good old Doofisbaker
Copy that...!
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Old 07-01-2016, 02:34 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Happy Canada Day Everyone...
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Old 07-02-2016, 12:01 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Anyhow. I ordered one, even though I don't collect modern aircraft. The Arrow is really something special though - maybe the ultimate "whiffer" story - and I always regretted not being in this hobby when the first two came out. So now, I got one! Yay!

Was there ever a good diecast TSR. 2?
I picked up a TSR2 made by Corgi - I am very pleased with it and it looks great with Arrows RL201 and RL203
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Old 07-04-2016, 07:05 AM   #117 (permalink)
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One of these fine beauties will be heading to South Yorkshire, England. Think it'll look fab next to my TSR-2 :-D
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Old 07-04-2016, 10:48 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Well then, how about a die cast YF-23 to complete the trifecta?
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Old 07-05-2016, 01:01 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

In regard to the Avro Arrow and a possible tie-in with the TSR2, here's a story CTV News ran in 2011 after a second Arrow ejection seat was located: Avro Arrow mystery deepens with U.K. discovery
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:05 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Interesting article and theories re the Martin Baker ejection seat and Arrow "Ghost Flight". Good chance Britain was in collaboration with Avro re the MB seats for their TSR2 program and simply purchased them. The so called "Ghost Flight" could have occurred the same way the RCAF Sabres (Swords) made their way to Germany and France in the early 50's to support NATO. They simply flew from RCAF Stn North Bay, Ontario to Newfoundland, then on to Greenland, Iceland, England, France, Germany. Think it was called "Operation Leap Frog" - or something like that. If you note my previous post on this thread, dated 06-27-2016 (09:29), you will find RL202 missing among the other Arrows in the "graveyard" photo (204, 203, 201, 205 are seen in photo).
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:55 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Interesting article and theories re the Martin Baker ejection seat and Arrow "Ghost Flight". Good chance Britain was in collaboration with Avro re the MB seats for their TSR2 program and simply purchased them. The so called "Ghost Flight" could have occurred the same way the RCAF Sabres (Swords) made their way to Germany and France in the early 50's to support NATO. They simply flew from RCAF Stn North Bay, Ontario to Newfoundland, then on to Greenland, Iceland, England, France, Germany. Think it was called "Operation Leap Frog" - or something like that. If you note my previous post on this thread, dated 06-27-2016 (09:29), you will find RL202 missing among the other Arrows in the "graveyard" photo (204, 203, 201, 205 are seen in photo).
Yeah, the whole conversation about how it would have been "out of range" to get an Arrow over the Atlantic is ridiculous. They got P-39s, P-40s and DC-3s to the USSR in WWII. If those could find their way to Europe, obviously an Arrow could do it too. People were circumnavigating the globe in much smaller and slower planes long before then. However, landing in Newfoundland would have garnered a lot of attention, so I suspect they would have had to take a different route.
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:07 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Yeah, the whole conversation about how it would have been "out of range" to get an Arrow over the Atlantic is ridiculous. They got P-39s, P-40s and DC-3s to the USSR in WWII. If those could find their way to Europe, obviously an Arrow could do it too. People were circumnavigating the globe in much smaller and slower planes long before then. However, landing in Newfoundland would have garnered a lot of attention, so I suspect they would have had to take a different route.
Perhaps a quick "top secret" refuel, under cloak of darkness, at RCAF Stn Gander, NFLD, could have done the trick...
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Old 07-05-2016, 05:39 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I was surprised to see an Arrow nose cone and ejection seat at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa on Sunday. I knew the nose section, wingtips and engines were at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum, but didn't know about the War Museum's display.

I was a little miffed that the CASM didn't have the wingtips on display. When I asked about them they said, "You aren't missing much." Umm... what? I have seen them before. I know exactly what I'm missing. It's the iconic shape of the plane! What about this isn't clear to them?? They really should display those in the main gallery with the rest of the jet.
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Old 07-05-2016, 06:21 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I was surprised to see an Arrow nose cone and ejection seat at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa on Sunday. I knew the nose section, wingtips and engines were at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum, but didn't know about the War Museum's display.

I was a little miffed that the CASM didn't have the wingtips on display. When I asked about them they said, "You aren't missing much." Umm... what? I have seen them before. I know exactly what I'm missing. It's the iconic shape of the plane! What about this isn't clear to them?? They really should display those in the main gallery with the rest of the jet.
Can't agree more and am surprised as you that they, CASM, would not understand/respect the historical importance/value of these iconic Avro Arrow wing tips... Letters MUST be written and calls MUST be made!!
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Old 07-05-2016, 06:34 PM   #125 (permalink)
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I was surprised to see an Arrow nose cone and ejection seat at the Canadian War Museum in Ottawa on Sunday. I knew the nose section, wingtips and engines were at the Canada Aviation and Space Museum, but didn't know about the War Museum's display.

I was a little miffed that the CASM didn't have the wingtips on display. When I asked about them they said, "You aren't missing much." Umm... what? I have seen them before. I know exactly what I'm missing. It's the iconic shape of the plane! What about this isn't clear to them?? They really should display those in the main gallery with the rest of the jet.

Heyyyyyyy, you were there too? Did you catch the fly-by of the Snowbirds and CF-18 BCATP?
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Old 07-05-2016, 06:46 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Here's a couple shots of the Arrow wingtips you were referring to Zen. Now who in their right mind, other than a total idiot, would NOT want to see these important pieces of Canadian Aeronautical history on display?!?!
Also found a shot of the beautifully engineered Arrow windshield and MB ejection seat...
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:20 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Heyyyyyyy, you were there too? Did you catch the fly-by of the Snowbirds and CF-18 BCATP?
Saw it over the Parliament Buildings, yes! Beautiful sight.
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Old 07-05-2016, 08:21 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Here's a couple shots of the Arrow wingtips you were referring to Zen. Now who in their right mind, other than a total idiot, would NOT want to see these important pieces of Canadian Aeronautical history on display?!?!
Also found a shot of the beautifully engineered Arrow windshield and MB ejection seat...
Right?? The wings are iconic. Those need to be on display.
I have seen all of these pieces in person except for that canopy piece. Where is that??
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:36 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Right?? The wings are iconic. Those need to be on display.
I have seen all of these pieces in person except for that canopy piece. Where is that??
Thought the front canopy was on display at the museum - but then, maybe they thought it was too ugly...
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:37 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Did some research re the Arrow windscreen and turns out it's part of the CWHM Collection in Hamilton, Ontario. Came across the Arrow cartoon that I found quite interesting and a couple shots of the Arrow's massive Orenda Iroquois engines from the CASM Collection...
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:43 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Might need a correction on the first engine photo as it looks like it might be from a CF-100 "Canuck" - note photo below engine. Will check engines for Canuck to confirm...
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Old 07-06-2016, 01:01 AM   #132 (permalink)
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OK, Avro Canada CF-100 "Canuck" also had Orenda turbojet engines...
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:20 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Did some research re the Arrow windscreen and turns out it's part of the CWHM Collection in Hamilton, Ontario. Came across the Arrow cartoon that I found quite interesting and a couple shots of the Arrow's massive Orenda Iroquois engines from the CASM Collection...
FYI, the CWHM has an Iroquois engine as well with holes cut into the high pressure areas, effectively destroying it.
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:28 AM   #134 (permalink)
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FYI, the CWHM has an Iroquois engine as with holes cut into the high pressure areas, effectively destroying it.
Guess this was part of the "destruction order" - surprised this engine even exists...
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:39 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Guess this was part of the "destruction order" - surprised this engine even exists...
Whether this is true or not, I found this:

CF105 Avro Arrow: Orenda PS-13 Iroquois Engine

After the cancellation of the Arrow Programme:
Who got to scrap the engines and related tooling?
Engine X-104 which had been fitted to the B-47 for engine tests went to the NRC for icing trials. It is now in the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum, Mount Hope, Ontario.
Engine X-116 went to Bristol Siddeley, where it helped in evolution of the Olympus for the TSR2 (also cancelled) and the Concord. X-116 then went to Cranfield College as a teaching aid and then tostorage in pieces at the RAF Hendon Museum, UK.

Orenda sells the manufacturing rights for the Iroquois engine to Curtis-Wright Corp. of the U.S. on 30 Sept 1957. Along with manufacturing rights was permission to sell and further develop the engine.

During the competition to replace the F-86 Sabre in Europe, Republic was offering Canada the F-105 Thunderchief with the Iroquois engine. However, the cost of producing it in Canada with the Canadian Iroquois engine proved to be prohibitive, therefore it was eliminated as a contender.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:42 AM   #136 (permalink)
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CASM in Ottawa has an Iroquois. I was just there looking at it.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:54 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Whether this is true or not, I found this:

CF105 Avro Arrow: Orenda PS-13 Iroquois Engine

After the cancellation of the Arrow Programme:
Who got to scrap the engines and related tooling?
Engine X-104 which had been fitted to the B-47 for engine tests went to the NRC for icing trials. It is now in the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum, Mount Hope, Ontario.
Engine X-116 went to Bristol Siddeley, where it helped in evolution of the Olympus for the TSR2 (also cancelled) and the Concord. X-116 then went to Cranfield College as a teaching aid and then tostorage in pieces at the RAF Hendon Museum, UK.

Orenda sells the manufacturing rights for the Iroquois engine to Curtis-Wright Corp. of the U.S. on 30 Sept 1957. Along with manufacturing rights was permission to sell and further develop the engine.

During the competition to replace the F-86 Sabre in Europe, Republic was offering Canada the F-105 Thunderchief with the Iroquois engine. However, the cost of producing it in Canada with the Canadian Iroquois engine proved to be prohibitive, therefore it was eliminated as a contender.
Interesting stuff, especially the F-105 "Thud" being offered to Canada as a candidate for replacing the F-86 Sabre... Great opportunities for Canada with the Arrow and Iroquois engine - too bad we could not find a way to hang on and develop these leading edge technologies to their full potential...
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:07 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Just spoke with CWHM Gift Shop and approximately "100" RL204 pieces have been presold to date. Still early but let's hope the presales continue to do well...
Cheers,
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:08 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Misfire repeat...
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Old 07-11-2016, 03:51 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Just like I said, if they issue other schemes, I'd preorder it. Preordered!

Now I'm debating whether I should buy a 2nd

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Old 07-11-2016, 04:17 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

I am surprised - I also talked with them late last week about the Chippy and Moth and they said it was selling very well and likely to sell out in the next month. They didnt give a quantity but certainly inferred it to me about half were sold/left....
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Just spoke with CWHM Gift Shop and approximately "100" RL204 pieces have been presold to date. Still early but let's hope the presales continue to do well...
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:27 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Just like I said, if they issue other schemes, I'd preorder it. Preordered!

Now I'm debating whether I should buy a 2nd
Considering RL204 is a much lower release number (only 1000 pcs) compared to RL201 and RL203 (total pcs 3500 and 3000 - respectfully), and that these two htf CWHM Arrows are now getting top dollar on the secondary market, I'd say it would be a wise investment to purchase two RL204s, or perhaps even more if you can afford it...
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:04 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Just corrected my previous 2010 release numbers for RL203 and RL201. RL-203 had 3,000 limited production pcs and RL201 had 3,500 produced. So, as you can see, compared to a combined total of 6,500 pcs for RL203 and RL201, which are currently htf and selling for approximately three times their original price, RL204, having only 1000 limited production pcs, should do well with future value per unit - I think...
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:12 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

I don't understand why they aren't allowing retailers to carry them. Air North did an exclusive on the GeminiJets ATR model and we sold 90 to retailers on the first day. It hasn't been hurting our sales at all to have other retailers selling them. In fact, it has helped considerably.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:20 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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I don't understand why they aren't allowing retailers to carry them. Air North did an exclusive on the GeminiJets ATR model and we sold 90 to retailers on the first day. It hasn't been hurting our sales at all to have other retailers selling them. In fact, it has helped considerably.
The simple answer from me is CWHM wants to maximize fund raising as they are a non profit.

Selling it to other retailers would cut into that.

Plus they sold out 6500 pieces before. It took a while but they did it.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:26 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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I am surprised - I also talked with them late last week about the Chippy and Moth and they said it was selling very well and likely to sell out in the next month. They didnt give a quantity but certainly inferred it to me about half were sold/left....
Went to pick mine up a few weeks ago. About half were under the front desk for pickup with the remainder on the shelf.

They had Lancaster day this past weekend and a classic car event this weekend. Lots of eyes and impulse buyers. :-)
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:35 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Just corrected my previous 2010 release numbers for RL203 and RL201. RL-203 had 3,000 limited production pcs and RL201 had 3,500 produced. So, as you can see, compared to a combined total of 6,500 pcs for RL203 and RL201, which are currently htf and selling for approximately three times their original price, RL204, having only 1000 limited production pcs, should do well with future value per unit - I think...
RL-201 seems to be the rarer of the two "originals" atm. There is a RL-203 sitting pretty on eBay going for $300...still hasn't sold yet.

I remember a few months ago one of the Arrow threads exploded and everyone was looking for an Arrow on eBay. Somebody even paid $400 for one!

While the RL-204 would be profitable as a sell on eBay, I don't think the profit margin would be as high as RL-201/203. Plus, the RL-204 might not be the last Arrow CWHM could produce. There's still an opportunity to make RL-202 with a limited production of 1000 as well...

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Old 07-11-2016, 09:50 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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RL-201 seems to be the rarer of the two "originals" atm. There is a RL-203 sitting pretty on eBay going for $300...still hasn't sold yet.

I remember a few months ago one of the Arrow threads exploded and everyone was looking for an Arrow on eBay. Somebody even paid $400 for one!

While the RL-204 would be profitable as a sell on eBay, I don't think the profit margin would be as high as RL-201/203. Plus, the RL-204 might not be the last Arrow CWHM could produce. There's still an opportunity to make RL-202 with a limited production of 1000 as well...
I see your point Roo but remember 204 is only 1000 pcs and given time, and it's interesting orange-glo tail-rudder scheme, it just might become the most sought after Arrow of the three in a couple of years. Just sayin...
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Old 07-11-2016, 10:14 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

Quite true, but it's quite a long term investment with no guarantees. I'd probably invest in other planes too if I were wanting to make money.

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Old 07-11-2016, 10:54 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Default Re: Canadian Warplane Heritage CWH005 Avro Canada Arrow Mk.1 25204

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Quite true, but it's quite a long term investment with no guarantees. I'd probably invest in other planes too if I were wanting to make money.
Was talking with a local collector recently who, literally, has a "house full" of diecast, most still in boxes and stacked to the ceilings. He buys several of what he thinks will best accrue in value over a two year period. His comment to me was, "you've got to be patient and sit on them for awhile". Don't get me wrong, he does have some favorites on display, but his main goal is "investment collecting". That's why picking up 5 or 6 RL204s, IMO, would be a smart move - display one and store the rest as a retirement fund...
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