Hi guys,
As you know we are paying more and more to buy a diecast model, the next Hobby Master F22 release will cost about $92. This higher price across the whole toy market makes me wondering how long I will stay in this hobby. The diecast market has been shrinking and now with the increasing price tag. The quality is going to south and price to north. I am wondering how many will drop the bus.
Hi guys,
As you know we are paying more and more to buy a diecast model, the next Hobby Master F22 release will cost about $92. This higher price across the whole toy market makes me wondering how long I will stay in this hobby. The diecast market has been shrinking and now with the increasing price tag. The quality is going to south and price to north. I am wondering how many will drop the bus.
There is always a price point at which one will or will not purchase. Vote with your wallet. I could "retire" now and be happy with the current acquisitions.
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More Lufthansa and Virgin Atlantic 744s!!
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Sad thing is that with the devaluation of the yaun, production cost should be less expensive for HM to produce product, the reason China did so.
Yes though, this is getting to be an expensive hobby and given so, those companies wanting my dollars will have to bring the value in their product to earn them.
You can thank the Chinese economy for this, the average wage is significantly higher than it was 10 years ago. Time to look for a new Third-World hell-hole to start a new manufacturing base, get those dollar-a-day workers trained to make our models!
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Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or imbeciles who really mean it. Mark Twain
Hi guys, As you know we are paying more and more to buy a diecast model, the next Hobby Master F22 release will cost about $92. This higher price across the whole toy market makes me wondering how long I will stay in this hobby. The diecast market has been shrinking and now with the increasing price tag.
The quality is going South & price going North
I am wondering how many will drop the bus.
Smack on with what you've said ~ I've spoken to many with same thoughts & views like yours.
I'd say I fit into the same category ~ My buying has shrunken drastically (to what it once was).
The thought of paying SO much more, for 'inferior' quality to what I was buying 5-7-9 years ago is saddening.
(not to mention crazy & makes both me AND my extensive but sensitive wallet "blanche").
Suddenly, High-quality plastic kits & aftermarket decal-sheets have taken-on a new importance.
Am just GLAD that I bought so many 'decent' quality products at the right time, for "sensible money"
(the writing was on the wall for me, when I saw "new" C.W.F.14's jump to more than DOUBLE in just 3xmonths)
Only so far, before the (sensible) working man says...."Enough's enough".
To pay MORE money for an inferior product & paint (or Q.C), just settles the issue
You can thank the Chinese economy for this, the average wage is significantly higher than it was 10 years ago. Time to look for a new Third-World hell-hole to start a new manufacturing base, get those dollar-a-day workers trained to make our models!
make sure no human rights activist reads your post
Smack on with what you've said ~ I've spoken to many with same thoughts & views like yours.
I'd say I fit into the same category ~ My buying has shrunken drastically (to what it once was).
The thought of paying SO much more, for 'inferior' quality to what I was buying 5-7-9 years ago is saddening.
(not to mention crazy & makes both me AND my extensive but sensitive wallet "blanche").
Suddenly, High-quality plastic kits & aftermarket decal-sheets have taken-on a new importance.
Am just GLAD that I bought so many 'decent' quality products at the right time, for "sensible money" . . .
. . . To pay MORE money for an inferior product & paint (or Q.C), just settles the issue
Yes, I have to agree. I've pretty much stopped buying. Well . . . OK, I haven't bought anything for about 3 years now and I'm fine with it. Mainly for the above reasons. Bored with it all as well. That said, I do have one new item in my sights, but we'll have to see.
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I agree diecast will have to close down if it is going like that. The only way to make your point is to not buy anymore. Otherwise prices will keep creeping up with quality going down the drain. I know a fellow collector that returned the HM E2 hawkeye for the top writing error, and right after that HM decided to "correct" the error. The word before that was "its too late to correct, product is already in production".
If, by "diecast" one means the old one-plane-at-a-time, business plan launched by Corgi many years ago and continued by Dragon, Witty, FOV, Gemini, HM etc. until one by one all but Corgi and HM have dropped out, you are right----"diecast" is dying.It's not that there is a dearth of collectors. Rather, the plain fact is that the 1:72nd scale manufacturers have run out of sure fire profitable items to market---like P-51s, BF-109s, Zeros, etc. as well as F-4s, F-16s, F-18s, etc. As a result, their business model, which strives to make a profit on every release, isn't viable anymore----the risks of doing all of the latest jet fighters, let alone rather obscure Cold War planes---with a few exceptions---is just too great.
As we must also be aware, other business models are thriving---relative to the old one. The partwork lines have never been so numerous and, increasingly, they are exploring the 1:72nd scale, though it must be said that most of these models are low budget affairs with numerous flaws and shortcuts taken. The Oxford British subject line is another example as it, too, is a "budget" operation but is some steps above the partwork standard, and is turning out pretty acceptable models like the Anson.
So, what is really happening is that the "diecast" market, as it matures, is morphing into new forms. These are the partwork, mass produced cheapies, the Oxford low budget---but better than partwork models, and numerous niche players with very low production runs and very high prices who make larger models---usually 1:30th scale. Nestled uncomfortably in the middle of this range are Corgi and HM, with AF1, I suppose, though it's hard to make much sense out of this company's strategy at present.
In short, we now have a distinct price conscious segment that buys the Amercom, Altaya, IXO, etc. product plus the British buyers of Oxford's British birds, plus and, at the opposity extreme, high priced stuff put out by John Jenkins Designs, Figarti, King& Country, etc. as well as the HM, Corgi and AF1 lines---if the latter even qualifies as a "line" rather than a random collection of models of varying quality in different scales.
In short, you can "vote" your displeasure by not buying a particular model, but this will have no impact on the manufacturers' decisions which are driven mainly by what the distributors tell them and their own competitively inspired judgements. As a collector who likes a certain style with all of the frills one has become accustomed to--- a certain scale, nice box, wheels up and down display options, pilot figures, sturdy stands, etc.----the reality is that the rules are changing and these may not be available anymore. We either adapt or we give up. I have chosen to adapt.
Sad thing is that with the devaluation of the yaun, production cost should be less expensive for HM to produce product, the reason China did so.
Yes though, this is getting to be an expensive hobby and given so, those companies wanting my dollars will have to bring the value in their product to earn them.
I've only been in this collecting game since 2011. It's been doom and gloom the whole time.
The Chinese capitalist experiment is over. They see that it works, so they are paying higher wages and not offering the tax and regulatory breaks to the factories anymore. Our hobby industry will adjust, just as any product line should.
US heavy manufacturing almost ceased to exist with the adoption of NAFTA, now we are seeing China move in that direction as well, so the factories will move to the cheap source of labor with a good harbor facility nearby. It will take time and some will succeed where others will fail.
The price/quality balance was passed in 2013, so we're seeing folks tired of spending more for the same, or less quality. It will adjust. It may take a decade... I'm no economist, but I do see global trends.
Look at Fender guitars. They became very profitable when they built factories in Japan and Mexico... both with the intent of different markets with lower prices up front. They shut down the Japanese factory because it competed with the quality of the US factories at a lower price, while very few acceptable Strats make their way to us from Mexico at more than half the price ,but using the exact same components.
Now for the unsavory comment: maybe we can start manufacturing these die cast models in the fine US 'sanctuary cities'.
It boils down to how much pounding your wallet can take, and/or how willing you are to tolerate substandard products. Lots of collectors (including moi) recognize that not only has this hobby become too dang expensive, but quality (in many cases) has sunk to unacceptable levels. The upshot being, lots of folks are drastically cutting their purchases—or bailing out.
Three long-time military diecast collector buddies of mine have already hit the silk (so to speak) and not for lack of zinc enthusiasm. Prices have simply escalated beyond their comfort zone. Nor will they purchase slipshod models. Can’t say I blame them.
For those with unlimited funds and lenience toward déclassé products, more power to ‘em. The rest of us will eventually wave goodbye and say, “Au revoir!”
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Dave
Last edited by Richtofen288; 10-28-2015 at 11:09 AM.
Manufacturers in this industry will learn like others that if you produce a poor product at a high price, people have many other venues to spend their money at.
Companies cannot allow for poor product, or even stagnant product, they must always strive to do better. HM is at a point of trying to gain control of a market niche and not doing so with quality as a priority. It's a tough balance of expansion and making products that sell. Throw in current economic times and it is a difficult job.
That so where listening to the customer base and then acting on it is so important. HM may take offense some times at comments, but those comments are what can make the company succeed if they listen.
I understand why and where HM stands, I hope they continue to understand the perspective of their customers as well.
I think the title should say " The future of DieCast military planes for adult collectors" because that is the market being hit. Die Cast cars are doing fine even with very high prices.
"Western collectors are having less and less influence on the market going forward."
That may explain the QC issues. But by doing so, you isolate a strong consumer market that may find another source that does influence the market a gain. Where ever there is a market niche to be filled in a competitive economy, some company will eventually find any niche that needs to be filled.
So that's why quality is done the drain now.......
I never said or implied that.
What I did say is that Chinese collectors are now the largest part of the World's Diecast aircraft market.
So collectors there are building up their collections of F-14s, F-15s, F-16s - but lesser well known types are not being sold there in the same numbers as Europe and North America.
What I did say is that Chinese collectors are now the largest part of the World's Diecast aircraft market.
So collectors there are building up their collections of F-14s, F-15s, F-16s - but lesser well known types are not being sold there in the same numbers as Europe and North America.
Dan
No not saying that you do, I mean that's why quality it down, because now the Chinese market is the largest market, they dont need to worry about quality when selling to Chinese collectors.
AF1 is a good example of the sort of quality they product for the domestic market. AF1 didn't just pop up over night, they'd been selling toys to the Chinese market for like 10 yrs already....
im glad that ive got most of the diecast aircraft models ive wanted to have.....the prices of diecast nowadays are ridiculously expensive that its almost unpayable to collectors....im slowly turning back buying some plastic models which is fine for me.....
im glad that ive got most of the diecast aircraft models ive wanted to have.....the prices of diecast nowadays are ridiculously expensive that its almost unpayable to collectors....im slowly turning back buying some plastic models which is fine for me.....
I thought that too, until I looked at the model prices and the various supplies required to finish them -- especially if you add 3rd party decals. Yikes! Modelling has gotten pretty pricey too.
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If you can find decent after market stuff and decal sheets.
'
Honestly Shawn ~ It's FAR easier these days to 'trip' over decal sheets than it was (say), 20 years ago.
I wuz buying mostly/mainly 'Microscale/Superscale' stuff back in 1989/1990's, simply because most other (decal) manufacturers were crap
Mixing in (mostly London) IPMS circles & being a member of the IPMS club who hosted Britain's 2nd-biggest annual weekend model show ('Southern-Expo'), enabled me to build up a huge aftermarket decal collection, mostly at silly prices.
Having moved-away, I now obtain any sheets I want from E-bay.
The sheer number of offerings & manufacturers eclipses what was available 10-15-20 years ago.
Plus, UNLIKE diecast-models (where like the original thread poster here said... "Quality is going South and prices going North", the opposite seems to be true with decal sheets.
(You love B.24's like I do ~ Check out the 'Kits-World' & 'Elite Decals' sheets on B.24's Especially the latter ~ They're Mustard !)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mar_ji
I'm glad that I've got most of the diecast aircraft models I wanted to have.....the prices of diecast nowadays are ridiculously expensive that its almost unpayable to collectors....im slowly turning back buying some plastic models which is fine for me.....
'
Apart from the 'unpayable' bit, I'm saying "AMEN" to everything you've said in your post, Mar_j
Everyone has their "cut-off" point & I guess I've pretty much reached mine.
(not that I don't have the money ~ It's at what stage you say "that price is too strong" & bail-out).
Like you man, I'm GLAD I bought those 'Showtime 100's, C.W.F-14's, Ju.52/88's/Halifaxes & Stirlings when I did.
No not saying that you do, I mean that's why quality it down, because now the Chinese market is the largest market, they dont need to worry about quality when selling to Chinese collectors.
AF1 is a good example of the sort of quality they product for the domestic market. AF1 didn't just pop up over night, they'd been selling toys to the Chinese market for like 10 yrs already....
I'm guessing many Chinese collectors will be just as nitpicky as many members of this board regarding accuracy.
If labor cost is really the main driver for the price increases I would be happy to get it as a kit and do the assembly myself. I have both of the HM kits and I was sad that they didn't take that line farther. I think the main issue with those kits in the eyes of the collector is that they are toys and not collectibles at that point. Which I do agree to some extent but why can't HM do both? Sell both assembled collectibles with nice box and also in kit form for substantially less. I think their potential market could be much greater if they are pre-painted with optional decals.
"The quality is going South & price going North "
I can only subscribe this !
Recently I bought 2 Concordes of Hogan (because I had read a lot of good comments), 1 Air France and 1 British Airways. Lucky I had an understanding seller. After the 3rd (!) Air France and after the 5th (!) British Airways it was OK ... Broken wheels, broken point at the back, rubbing marks all over the wings, misprinting of the markings, ... Normally I'm very reluctant with sending back airplanes but now ... paying 100 Euro (including shipping) each ...
And even now there are still "minor" issues: the tail from the Air France is a little bit of vertical and 1 marking on the British Airways is not perfect.
I recently had also problems with new models from Corgi, Hobbymaster and Century Wings: glue overflow, small parts not glued nicely (bombs, antennas, ...).
Ok so first of all id like to say this, investment or casting is extremely expensive, and depending on the method tooling can be extremely expensive (see low and high pressure die casting). This will make up most of the cost of manufacturing this item, then painting and other procedures make up another part and finally shipping and a margin for profit and we arrive at the final cost. However with the rise of 3D printing and additive manufacturing it is easy to foresee a much faster, cheaper and streamlined industry. We often see manufacturers leaving small inconsistencies on models as "it would be too expensive to change them" but with additive manufacturing all it would require is a small change to the drawing program and the changes could be made.
THERE ARE ONLY POSITIVES IN 3D Printing and additive manufacturing and I am sure in time as the tolerancing available and the price of the printers comes down that this will be a widely used manufacturing method and i am extremely surprised that this hasn't caught on yet. Hell if they released the drawing you could make these models for 1/4 of the price unpainted, but of course it would need a touch up.
Ok so first of all id like to say this, investment or casting is extremely expensive, and depending on the method tooling can be extremely expensive (see low and high pressure die casting). This will make up most of the cost of manufacturing this item, then painting and other procedures make up another part and finally shipping and a margin for profit and we arrive at the final cost. However with the rise of 3D printing and additive manufacturing it is easy to foresee a much faster, cheaper and streamlined industry. We often see manufacturers leaving small inconsistencies on models as "it would be too expensive to change them" but with additive manufacturing all it would require is a small change to the drawing program and the changes could be made.
THERE ARE ONLY POSITIVES IN 3D Printing and additive manufacturing and I am sure in time as the tolerancing available and the price of the printers comes down that this will be a widely used manufacturing method and i am extremely surprised that this hasn't caught on yet. Hell if they released the drawing you could make these models for 1/4 of the price unpainted, but of course it would need a touch up.
Opinions?
Additive manufacturing would help with some of the releases with mistakes. There's been at least one WWII 1:72 fighter recently I can think of with an inaccuracy that needs fixing.
3D printing can be done in color now though it's plastics or resin, it comes right out of the process already painted.
3D printing is a long way from actually printing metal though, but it should speed up the process from prototype to production.
As far as i know powder metallurgy can be used with 3D printing, and a quick google search will confirm this. Also additive manufacturing and 3d printing are one and the same additive manufacturing is a blanket term for manufacturing processes that add material instead of taking away.
Fo mass production, 3D printing should be slower than casting. There are lots of small parts in the models, 3D printing may not be cost effective to individual building models also. We needed to buy materials, CAD drawings, and etc, of couse including the machine and its maintenance cost. One of the main reasons for the exisiting of diecast models is its cost cheaper than build by yourself. In the past, I felt very excited to recieve my models, good quality and heavy. Most of my current receives are with quality issues, it is so frustrated to see all these bad quality models. They all triggered me to stop buying. In one day or soon, I could be completely quit this hobby and spend my money more worthy.
Yeah I don't think 3D printing will save this hobby, personally even though it's a great innovation, there's just something about it that puts me off from continuing this hobby once models are made that way.
I think we are all feeling the sting of higher prices but poorer quality. That's not to say all models are poor but a larger percentage then before.
There was a time I felt safe purchasing a HM model from online while other brands I was not like Witty for example but even buying HM models is somewhat of a hit and miss affair now :-(
If any of these companies have any chance of surviving another few more years at least, there going to need to put more effort into assembly worker training and quality control. This kind of manufacturing is semi skilled labour, their not sitting there stamping out number plates all day and so should have more skills. Unfotunitely unless a manufacturer is willing to take a slight hit in profits in order to foster high quality, we'll continue to see more and more quality issues as factory workers are more and more unskilled.
First of all 3D printing can print anything up to and including 50 microns, which will be more than sufficient to mass produce die-cast models, while mass producing may be slower depending on the type of die cast (high or low pressure it depends also on the printer the accuracy and the material) 3D printing is extremely time effective. Current kit builds are cheaper to build by yourself because they are forged using investment casting (such as lost wax investment) which is so much more cost effective for small runs and small parts.
And to the part "good quality and heavy". As 3D printing can produce small parts of 50 microns and all though the surface finish is horrible this is an extremely small peice, all in all accuracy is not an issue. As for the heavy part 3D printing can be used with alloys not limited too but including Tungsten, Aluminium and Steel. So weight shouldnt be a problem here.
I'm also not sure why there is such a stigma around 3D printing. I personally (me) believe that it will save costs and accuracy will be either improved or at least more consistent (there is no room for cast defects in 3D printing) and furthermore no join lines are needed the entire part is cast from one block. And I speak from experience when i say industry is making a large switch to the procedure. I'm a 3rd year engineer (studying) and i have done two separate manufacturing courses, furthermore my contacts in industry only sing praises of 3D printing saying it will revolutionise industry.
Im sure that at this time companies will be looking at 3D printing and saying "well give it a few years, until the price of 3D printers comes down". and i agree that is good argument against them, but when HM puts $10000 down on a new mould for the casting procedure for every plane and then cant make some changes necessary to the mould as it would cost to much. And people are complaining about joint lines easily visible in their brand new expensive F-14 or RF-5C I believe that 3D printing could be the answer.
(this was so small they had to view it in an electron microscope and is half the length of a particle of dust)
P.S. I am not having a go at anybody im just having a constructive argument and im sorry if it seems that way.
Wow half a particle of dust.... That's impressive...
You do make a good point about no join lines, that's completely a thing of the past with 3D printing. Gez maybe part of me doesn't want this coz I won't be a me to look at my current collection in the same way again after the first 3d AC is made lol
But one thing 3D printing can't solve is poor paint work.... Unless that's something can be done as part of the process, if the model can be completely printed and no touched by anyone other then to put it into a box, that would be awesome.
Not even a base colour can be added ? At least that would just leave extra or special marking to add...
Oh another good thing about 3D printin, no residual glue all over the model eve again !!!! Lol but also means when a small part breaks off, it either stays broken or you fix it as spares would be a thing of the past
well the material used would still be aluminium or steel so the colour would be the same as current die-cast.
And spares could easily be printed using the same printer as the one used to make the base plane. And I thought that spares were usually the plastic parts, so therefore manufactured using a different method meaning that hopefully not to much would change.
it would be an amazing jump in diecast fighter jet models but the big question is if it will ever happen. The machine sounds like a very, very expensive machine. But if, as have been noted, the price of that machine became affordable for manufacturers then this might be a new horizon to the diecast jets we've always complained about.
I realize that my experience---and solution----is not for everyone, but when it became obvious that many diecast airplane models---even those made by so-called "quality" brands, to say nothing of the cheapie lines like IXO, Altaya, etc.----were rife with errors and omissions, I decided to teach myself how to repair and redo those models I cared to display, including many "unusual subjects". I wasn't a dedicated model maker or expert painter, detailer, etc. Quite the opposite. But I set about to teach myself, using the many builds and finished models on the Internet to guide me.
That was roughly 15 years ago and since then I have become very proficient at it, learning and all the time, experimenting, and refining what skills I had. For me, at least, this solution has worked wonders and it is the main reason why I'm still "into" this hobby.If I get my hands on a plane like an HS-126, which is badly painted and missing its antenna and stirrups, I am confident that I can convert the model into something to my standards and liking...and that's exactly what I do.
I can hear some of you guys saying, "That's fine for you, Ed, but it took you 15 years and we aren't going to wait that long". Actually, my progression from rank amateur to semi-skilled rectifier was quite rapid. By year two, I was performing pretty good code 3s and the last 14 years have seen me simply refining whatever capabilities I have been able to attain.
As I said, my approach is not for everyone and I have no problem with that.... but for those of you who have the latent, as yet undeveloped talent---plus the interest---think about it. There may be a way out.
it may be the way for someone with modeling interest. But if the interest itself is in buying a ready made model as in unbox it and display it, then modifying it can in fact be against the hobby.
it may be the way for someone with modeling interest. But if the interest itself is in buying a ready made model as in unbox it and display it, then modifying it can in fact be against the hobby.
As I said, I assume that some may not be interested in doing code 3s and other work on their models, however, I do not understand why doing so might be "against the hobby". Don't we all decide what we want and are willing to do while participating in this hobby---or is there an official definition of what is the hobby that we should all adhere to. Just asking.
it may be the way for someone with modeling interest. But if the interest itself is in buying a ready made model as in unbox it and display it, then modifying it can in fact be against the hobby.
Well said, Stein. For those with a fondness for modifying models, great; a facelift can do wonders for various ghastly examples. But traditional collectors who prize factory-fresh, mint models, purists who feel that customizing a model merely spoils it, should steer well clear of applying paints, washes, and/or attachments and modifications to them. In most cases, tweaking a model commercially devalues it.
Having said that, though, I applaud several of our members who do consummate Code 3 work.
As I said, I assume that some may not be interested in doing code 3s and other work on their models, however, I do not understand why doing so might be "against the hobby". Don't we all decide what we want and are willing to do while participating in this hobby---or is there an official definition of what is the hobby that we should all adhere to. Just asking.
its in the "if" statement, but as have been noted the work some do on the ready made diecast jets can be quite impressive.
At some point, printing may become a cheaper way to mass manufacture an item but right now it's not. Down the road, and that's a long way, I could see it happening. Certainly though, making the plates for R&Ding the molds would be a closer possibility and that would facilitate less cost for R&D as well the ability to change mistakes as well make variations with less expense.
Honestly, the issues of quality control is it's own issue and could be considered a cultural as well local economic issue given China's issue of quality production workers. As well work and quality ethics, the same issues you saw with Japan in the 50's and 60's.
Global economics also may play a larger role as economies of scale change. As well the issue of if China pushes the Japan Sea issue to the point that economic relations lapse in the mid term.
There are many issues, short and long that could turn this hobby on a dime, should they rear up.
Assuming everything stays stable, It comes down to demand, competition, quality and pricing. I see the demand staying stable for the long run given the number of models that could be made.
Competition drives quality and price market niches and with the number of new manufacturers, HM will need to at least keep their quality and prices the same to keep an advantage. Should others start to improve their quality, then HM will need to "up their game" to keep their lead. This is a standard market model, and HM has a strong advantage right now with good product and pricing although raising their prices can hurt them. Especially when global market forces are allowing for price cuts. As long as HM invest further as they are now doing with new product models, customers in the aircraft die cast niche should understand there is a reason for HM to set slightly higher prices. At the same time, it does open the door for someone else to enter that market niche, IF they offer a similar quality product, which we are not seeing.
The main player? (well the one with the seeming highest resolution machines) in the 3D bureau printing market, Shapeways now do 3D printing in Aluminum, they have done other metals for a while now. It's expensive, to do a 1/200 engine nacelle and propeller 3D file cost me $100 USD (4 of each). If I were to a full 1/200 aircraft DC-3 size it would cost me over $350.
And I still need to sand back the material. I have also tried frosted ultra detail and frosted extreme detail with good results. They also print using castable wax.
Thing to add, I would never, never have any 3D printing done in China if I could find such a 3D printing bureau there with machines to a similar standard to Shapeways
The future of Diecast Model
Re: The future of Diecast Model
Re: The future of Diecast Model
Modelling has gotten pretty pricey too.
Especially the latter ~ They're Mustard !)
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