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Old 05-21-2015, 05:19 PM   #51
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

colors in pictures could be misleading.....the only way to confirm it is seeing the model in the flesh....if theres a chance at least....many factors can contribute to difference in color of a given model or the real aircraft....like when its exposed in a shade or in the sun...the distance taken of a model with or without flash....etc...but even then, the color of paint used 20 years ago doesnt mean its the same color thats used in the present aircraft....everything can change or vary in shades or color

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Old 05-21-2015, 06:05 PM   #52
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by Richard from Rotterdam View Post
I'll have to see it in real life to make up my mind about the blue/grey. These pictures don't have the best lighting.

One thing I do not understand though, is why it is so difficult to obtain the exact colour. These Federal STANDARD colours should not be too hard to reproduce or procure I think?
Perhaps the problem comes from the differences in paints? I occasionally build model kits and I've noticed that the pigmentation can differ from paint brand to paint brand even though the labeled paint color is exactly the same. The color can also change depending on the primer undercoat color.

I've also read in places that the colors of the Mod Eagle paint scheme can be different depending on the ambient light.

Indeed, this may be one of those models where you have to see this in person and hold it up to various light sources...

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Old 05-21-2015, 09:12 PM   #53
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

"i think jeff's (tripoli) expression when he sees these photos will be a classic instagram moment. just wondering what shade of blue he's face will turn into... "

Since you asked...



Feeling a bit blue about it.

Heck, at least we got CW to change the Tomcatters, who would have guessed...
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Old 05-22-2015, 05:11 AM   #54
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by tomcatter View Post
i think jeff's (tripoli) expression when he sees these photos will be a classic instagram moment. just wondering what shade of blue he's face will turn into...
Jeff isn't the only one with face somewhere between blood red and sky blue.
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Old 05-22-2015, 05:27 AM   #55
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by tripoli View Post
"i think jeff's (tripoli) expression when he sees these photos will be a classic instagram moment. just wondering what shade of blue he's face will turn into... "

Since you asked...



Feeling a bit blue about it.

Heck, at least we got CW to change the Tomcatters, who would have guessed...


hm, u better get your greys right real soon or there'll be one beast coming at ya...

p.s. richard from rotterdam is right... why don't they just follow the actual standard paint scheme on these birds?
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:48 AM   #56
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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hm, u better get your greys right real soon or there'll be one beast coming at ya...

p.s. richard from rotterdam is right... why don't they just follow the actual standard paint scheme on these birds?
thing is, early HM (up until around 2010-11), used to mostly get everything right- why did they start buggering things up after that period? ever since 2011, they've got colour schemes & even some moulds wrong- before that there were few complaints.
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Old 05-22-2015, 04:05 PM   #57
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Probably complacency. Now that they are an established company putting out a lot of models each year, maybe they figure people will buy them not matter what, and in many cases they do. So some errors here and there probably isn't as important if they know they will sell anyway.
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Old 05-22-2015, 05:25 PM   #58
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Probably complacency. Now that they are an established company putting out a lot of models each year, maybe they figure people will buy them not matter what, and in many cases they do. So some errors here and there probably isn't as important if they know they will sell anyway.
This simply is not the case.

William has stated that the dark grey colour on this F-15 release was adjusted by 15% in response to collector's input.

It only remains to be seen if that adjustment was enough or if Hobby Master's photo editing is the actual problem.

Until one sees it in the flesh - the jury will be out.

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Old 05-22-2015, 05:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

It's not the grey that is the problem, it's the blue. Decreasing the darkness of the grey creates even a worse contrast between the two colors. Not only is this solution treating the wrong issue, it's accentuating the overall look in a worse way. I hope that picture was a joke, otherwise that's three models that are a waste of effort and resources at a time HM could be popping out some great liveries.
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Old 05-22-2015, 06:16 PM   #60
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by ACpilot View Post
This simply is not the case.

William has stated that the dark grey colour on this F-15 release was adjusted by 15% in response to collector's input.

It only remains to be seen if that adjustment was enough or if Hobby Master's photo editing is the actual problem.

Until one sees it in the flesh - the jury will be out.

Dan
Sorry, I should've clarified further. I didn't mean HM are complacent in this case, I was referring more to be previous general statement of why there have been more mistakes as time goes on compared to earlier models. HM is still an awesome brand by all means. Some collectors care more about inaccuracies or intended developer variances in colors than others. I have many Witty planes with all the errors others point out that keeps them from buying them, but still like them because of the liveries. It's all a matter of preference in the end I guess, and HM makes great models. Kudos to them for being receptive to feedback.

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Old 05-22-2015, 08:05 PM   #61
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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I hope that picture was a joke
Not a joke, but I'm hoping just some photo editing by the photographer to make it look like the previous releases.

Dan
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Old 05-23-2015, 07:02 AM   #62
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Dan, do you know anything about how William and his co-workers decide on which colours to use? Do they use any official DOD paint schemes? That would be the best starting point I think.

Here's an interesting PDF to download which sets out all the paint requirements for US Navy and USMC paint schemes and markings, with in detail all the different colours set out with their FS numbers.

MIL-STD-2161 C PAINT SCHEMES EXTERIOR MARKINGS US NAVY

There is also a USAF Tech Order (although from 1998) which sets out patterns and the official FS colours:

TO 1-1-4 CHG-6 EXTERIOR FINISHES INSIGNIA MARKINGS TO

Especially this last document should reveal some clues to the F-15, although I don't know if there has been an update since, detailing the current F-15 camo.
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Old 05-23-2015, 09:56 AM   #63
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

i don t know what i have to think about hm colors, seems very strange to me ( like same totaly bad F-35 colors scheme ) but i will wait for it in real, anyway for me witty get a good job done with color scheme
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:16 AM   #64
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by tripoli View Post
It's not the grey that is the problem, it's the blue. Decreasing the darkness of the grey creates even a worse contrast between the two colors. Not only is this solution treating the wrong issue, it's accentuating the overall look in a worse way.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I could possibly deal with slight incorrect colours being used, but it is the massive contrast (the difference in colour) between the grey and the blue that really makes this scheme look wrong and keeps it out of my collection. Which is a shame because I'm genuinely looking forward to picking up a C at some point - but not when it looks like that.

For the record - I was hoping for something more like this -
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Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"-ha4551-colour_corrected.jpg  
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Old 05-24-2015, 11:40 PM   #65
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Just to add to this discussion, check out this kit build : 1/32 Tamiya F-15C Eagle MSIP II by David Porter

Note that the builder writes:
Quote:
The tough part of the F-15C is the ‘Mod Eagle’ paint scheme. For some reason getting the colour right on this scheme is difficult to achieve. The underneath colour isn’t too difficult (I used the Xtracrylix Grey made especially for it with various subtle shading mixed in), but getting the right colour for the topside bluey-grey remains elusive. For this I ended up using 50% Lifecolor Air Superiority Blue and 50% Lifecolor Mod Eagle Grey which was layered on with subtle shades. In the end I think the result looks just about right. This is the toughest part of the build really because none of the colours supplied by the various paint manufacturers really do the job or even for that matter look the same. Even those that claim theirs is an FS colour match they are vastly different colours than those who claim the same thing. The Tamiya paint colour instructions have a callout that mixes sky blue with white and grey that gives a very blue finish which is actually not bad, but really it is a grey, that just looks really blue from certain angles an in certain lighting conditions.
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:42 AM   #66
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Nice work there on the colour adjustment Comco, if it looked anything like that I think most would be satisfied.

I suppose the true test will be seeing it in the flesh, but there is no doubt that at this stage those photos are a real disappointment. Even more so when you only have to compare it with their own artwork to see how it should be done?!



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Old 05-25-2015, 12:15 PM   #67
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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I thought I would bring collectors up to date as there have been several suggestions regarding this release that Hobby Master has listened to.

First of all, the colour will not be the same as the previous F-15D releases - no hint of blue.

Second one of the identifying features of late model F-15Cs are the IFF antennas above and below the nose just behind the radome. These will be added to the model as seen on the tooling below.





Next, the UHF Aeriel on top of the fuselage (behind the cockpit) will be moved further aft where it should be on all F-15s.

Additionally, I have heard back from William and Hobby Master will provide four AIM-7s and four AIM-120s for the four Fuselage stations.

That way collectors can arm the Fuselage stations as per Operation Allied Force (Sparrows forward and AMRAAMS rear) or all Sparrows or all AMRAAMS.

They will have to be attached by the collector though.

Finally, another collector has reported that the external fuel tanks will have the panel lines reduced.

Dan


Below: From an article on Operation Allied Force - World Air Power Journal Vol.38 1999
This is Raptor 02 in a bright sunlight, which makes the colors lighter than they actually are
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:34 PM   #68
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Well like in this image, the Ocean grey really does look like a blue, close to that of HM Eagle, I suppose it comes down to the lighting. Presonally having seen the Mo and Nasa's Eagle, I'd say the new cammo with 15% lighter blue will bring a pretty solid finish.
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:35 PM   #69
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:28 PM   #70
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

First Non Hobby Master Photo has appeared via 88cyborg.

Looks much better.

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Old 05-25-2015, 11:02 PM   #71
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

yo jeff (tripoli)! in 3... 2... 1...
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:19 AM   #72
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Looks like a FOV pos paint job.
A great mold, wasted by a bad paint job.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:29 AM   #73
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Looks like a FOV pos paint job.
A great mold, wasted by a bad paint job.
Time will tell as more collectors post their photos of the actual model.

So far 88cyborgs photo is encouraging.

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Old 05-26-2015, 01:42 AM   #74
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

"So far 88cyborgs photo is encouraging."

Looks like the same bad blue high contrast mistakes of the past, not seeing it as you are.
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Old 05-26-2015, 02:00 AM   #75
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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"So far 88cyborgs photo is encouraging."

Looks like the same bad blue high contrast mistakes of the past, not seeing it as you are.
The blue is toned down a bit (15% according to William).

To me the difference is obvious - Maybe time to upgrade your monitor.

Dan




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Old 05-26-2015, 03:13 AM   #76
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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The blue is toned down a bit (15% according to William).

To me the difference is obvious - Maybe time to upgrade your monitor.

Dan



but it still looks too blue- it should be grey, not blue-grey.
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Old 05-26-2015, 03:24 AM   #77
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but it still looks too blue- it should be grey, not blue-grey.
It may have to be adjusted further on future releases.

There are many many photos that show some blue on this scheme. This could be due to reflecting blue in the atmosphere for instance.

I'm expecting my copy of this release fairly soon. I will take photos side by side with the Witty version I already have - so we will know once and for all what the true colours are.

Dan

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Old 05-26-2015, 07:08 AM   #78
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

While the new photo is encouraging, I still feel the contrast is too great. Time will tell I suppose.

One thought I did have though, while everyone has been side-tracked with the blueness of the dark grey, the more photos I look at of the real thing, the more I think that the light grey could even be too light, and that is accentuating the contrast issues?

As has been alluded to, there is plenty of photographic evidence out there to suggest the dark grey does exhibit some blue tones under certain lighting, but if that's the 'look' HM are aiming for, then I would suggest the light grey has to be considerably darkened as well.

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Old 05-26-2015, 10:22 AM   #79
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

"To me the difference is obvious - Maybe time to upgrade your monitor."

I have a new HD 22" HP high definition monitor. Great for watching blurays on. Shoots that theory down to.

It's a FOV POS paint scheme, as most others are noting as well. As commented also, if HM wanted to try to make it better, they should have gone with a darker grey to cut down the contrast between the two colors. Lightening up the grey only brings out the blue colors stronger and makes it stand out more, creating a worsened contrast. But the know solution everyone else is seeing is that HM need to cut out the blue and used the USAF color schemes. That F-22 side by side also shows how the latest F-22 models look bad, the same issue of light to dark colors schemes on the HM models.

I would rather buy two HM models than one CW model, but guess where my next purchase is going... CW actually listened. Hard to believe the switch of who is listening to their customer base right now.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:57 AM   #80
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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I have a new HD 22" HP high definition monitor. Great for watching blurays on. Shoots that theory down.

CW actually listened. Hard to believe the switch of who is listening to their customer base right now.
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Old 05-26-2015, 11:05 AM   #81
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Can't agree that it looks better. Can't even say that it's the least terrible. It still looks bad. You know when you do something and it's so insignificant that its tantamount to have done anything at all, well this is exactly just that. The photo just looks less saturated than HM's photo op and also the contrast looks even stronger now in that pic. It's just awful

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Old 05-26-2015, 12:37 PM   #82
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CW actually listened. Hard to believe the switch of who is listening to their customer base right now.
I'm glad Century Wings listened as well regarding the Tomcatters F-14.

However CW produces a single new model on a long established tooling every three months.

Hobby Master produces around thirty new releases in that period of time.

HM does listen more than any other manufacturer. The just released AETE CF-18 is virtually flawless for example.

In this case HM listened and adjusted the paint. It only remains to be seen if it was adjusted enough or not.

Again, I'm not saying that the F-15 paint is correct. Just that it remains to be seen if the single Hobby Master photo is representative of how the model actually looks.

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Old 05-26-2015, 01:30 PM   #83
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

I like HM, would like to see them be successful. I just can't cheer lead something along I know is bad, especially seeing them make the same mistake over and over again with a model that design wise is incredible but painted horrible. Supporting such instead of admitting it's bad and giving a shout out, only allows for HM to continue making the same mistake over and over, which they are.

Too bad because I really want a good HM F-15 and these liveries would be great if they were painted correctly. Just a waste of resources and production slots for good models HM could be making but is not.

I am happy you had HM's ear for the F-18 AETE model, came out super, it's nice to know thast they can do such, lets hope it happens with the F-15 line now.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:34 PM   #84
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I like HM, would like to see them be successful. I just can't cheer lead something along I know is bad, especially seeing them make the same mistake over and over again with a model that design wise is incredible but painted horrible. Supporting such instead of admitting it's bad and giving a shout out, only allows for HM to continue making the same mistake over and over.

Too bad because I really want a good HM F-15 and these liveries would be great if they were painted correctly. Just a waste of resources and production slots for good models HM could but is not making.
I'm not cheering at all.

I'm only saying that the result of the paint change remains to be seen definitively.

If it needs further adjustment - fine. But that can't be determined until more photos of the model appear.

Dan
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:09 PM   #85
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

I really want to love this one but am having a hard time with it. My preorder is in but for the price I'd almost rather wait until one comes out that is not quite as "bright".
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:29 AM   #86
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It is more likely that "green stars" are more of statement of politically correctness - given that Iraq is now an ally for instance.

Dan
dan... just a quick check, i thought by protocol (some internal directive or something) that no flags of other nations are supposed to be used? i don't think it's just "political correctness but actually forbidden?
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:00 AM   #87
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dan... just a quick check, i thought by protocol (some internal directive or something) that no flags of other nations are supposed to be used? i don't think it's just "political correctness but actually forbidden?
so how come there are pics of real planes with those flags displayed?
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:15 AM   #88
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so how come there are pics of real planes with those flags displayed?
perhaps they realised the mistake thereafter? most of the pics are pictured with the green stars anyway...
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:06 AM   #89
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so how come there are pics of real planes with those flags displayed?
Probably pre the policy change?

I believe this particular airframe only carried the flags for a short time before being changed to stars. Most of the online photos I could find have stars.


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Old 05-28-2015, 05:19 AM   #90
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perhaps they realised the mistake thereafter? most of the pics are pictured with the green stars anyway...
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Probably pre the policy change?

I believe this particular airframe only carried the flags for a short time before being changed to stars. Most of the online photos I could find have stars.

take a look on DHP- there are several pics of F-15s with flag kill markings.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:22 AM   #91
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

i'm just beginning to wonder... is this blue/grey argument kinda like the blue-black/gold-white dress colour argument? :O
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:22 PM   #92
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACpilot View Post
Originally posted under April 2015 Hobby Master Releases.

Hobby Master 1/72 Air Power Series
HA4551
McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle
AF 86-0156/LN, Capt. Jeff Hwang, March 26, 1999
Operation Allied Force "Double MIG Killer"

April 2015 Release as announced on Hawkone's website.

Hobby Master 1-72 HA4551 McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle AF 86-0156/LN, Capt. Jeff Hwang, March 26, 1999 Operation Allied Force Double MIG Killer

Dan


I think they followed FOV's color blue print for those cause it looks exactly like an FOV effort
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Old 05-29-2015, 03:12 AM   #93
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by sniperUK View Post
Five minutes checking.


No blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard from Rotterdam View Post
Dan, do you know anything about how William and his co-workers decide on which colours to use? Do they use any official DOD paint schemes? That would be the best starting point I think.

Here's an interesting PDF to download which sets out all the paint requirements for US Navy and USMC paint schemes and markings, with in detail all the different colours set out with their FS numbers.

MIL-STD-2161 C PAINT SCHEMES EXTERIOR MARKINGS US NAVY

There is also a USAF Tech Order (although from 1998) which sets out patterns and the official FS colours:

TO 1-1-4 CHG-6 EXTERIOR FINISHES INSIGNIA MARKINGS TO

Especially this last document should reveal some clues to the F-15, although I don't know if there has been an update since, detailing the current F-15 camo.
with the wealth of information available, why does hm continue to paint their eagles with the blue tinge? did they like paint a large batch of eagles with this scheme before the mistake was made known to them and are now making marking tweaks here and there to pass 'em off as different models? just thinking out loud...
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Old 05-29-2015, 08:51 AM   #94
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by tomcatter View Post
with the wealth of information available, why does hm continue to paint their eagles with the blue tinge? did they like paint a large batch of eagles with this scheme before the mistake was made known to them and are now making marking tweaks here and there to pass 'em off as different models? just thinking out loud...

probably correct with lower runs, batches are made well in advance i suspect
then they only have to tampo markings for each release although tanks and spine aerial have been corrected on the LN
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Old 05-29-2015, 10:10 AM   #95
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by phantomflanflinger View Post
probably correct with lower runs, batches are made well in advance i suspect
then they only have to tampo markings for each release although tanks and spine aerial have been corrected on the LN
Split releases: two separate models with separate release dates are manufactured at the same time as a cost saving measure.

The same thing happened with the previous NASA and Mountain Home D's.
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Old 05-29-2015, 10:38 AM   #96
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Originally Posted by Aardvark View Post
Split releases: two separate models with separate release dates are manufactured at the same time as a cost saving measure.

The same thing happened with the previous NASA and Mountain Home D's.
hey guys... we may be on to something here. go check your nasa and mountain home... they're exactly the SAME but for specific tampoed markings. i wouldn't be surprised if the f15c's are exactly the same also... and i have a sneaky feeling they were ALL from the same production run! just waiting to see whether the panel with the additional antennas were painted over
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Old 05-30-2015, 11:07 AM   #97
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

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Old 05-30-2015, 11:15 AM   #98
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

Reminds me of the Monty Python 'Parrot Sketch'

"is no more", "has ceased to be", "bereft of life, it rests in peace"
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:04 PM   #99
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

May not float everyone's boat but looks good enough for me.
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Last edited by MCODDJSX; 05-30-2015 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 05-30-2015, 04:14 PM   #100
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Default Re: Hobby Master HA4551 F-15C Eagle Operation Allied Force "Double Mig Killer"

I have the NASA F-15D, the blue is not near as bright as it appears in photos.
To truly judge the color of these models they must be seen in person, cameras seem to make the blue very bright unlike how it looks to the naked eye.
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