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Old 09-20-2021, 08:33 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Taking photos and Depth of Field

Always been difficult to get adequate Depth of field (DoF) when taking piccies of model airplanes.
A long standing myth is an APS-c camera will give improved DoF over a Fullframe sensor. This is false and explanations are on the internet.
So just did a test with FF Sony 850 and CZ 24-75 all taken at f22. Main point of focus is front fuselage door
first pic is Full Frame 35mm
second is the A840 in APS-c mode
third is Sony A70 APS-c
All were cropped to similar size 1800 pixels or less, with no other processing.
Note the a700 is marginally sharper on the tail but less sharp at the nose - Could be Af is just off a bit although more likely to be the micro adjustment of the sensor in the A850 than any other reason. I will look at this again. Also tried my Samyang Tilt Shift lens using the Scheimpflug principle but as it is manual focus I couldn't get the overall picture quite as sharp.



Sony A850 Full Frame





Sony A850 APS-C





Sony A700 APS-C





Sony A850 Full Frame





Sony A850 APS-C





Sony A700 APS-C






Sony A850 Full Frame



Sony A850 APS-C





Sony A700 APS-C


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Old 09-20-2021, 09:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

In my opinion the Sony 850 SPS-C (8) has the slightest of edges.
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:56 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

I'm preaching to the choir, here, and you guys probably already know your exposure basics, but here goes. I use manual focus for my
diecast airliner models, and what I do is choose an intermediate aperture. and doing a series of images, focusing first on
the part of the model closest to the camera, then more shots walking the focus back to the part of the model furthest from the camera.
Then I close down the lens a few more stops, and repeat. I have found the f22 definitely gives the best depth of field, but at that maximum
closed-down aperture, image is degraded by the optical limits of lens design. Nothing new here, but at least I know I'm getting the best possible
sharpness and depth if field possible for the equipment I have... Keep shootin', Doug
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug seeley View Post
I'm preaching to the choir, here, and you guys probably already know your exposure basics, but here goes. I use manual focus for my
diecast airliner models, and what I do is choose an intermediate aperture. and doing a series of images, focusing first on
the part of the model closest to the camera, then more shots walking the focus back to the part of the model furthest from the camera.
Then I close down the lens a few more stops, and repeat. I have found the f22 definitely gives the best depth of field, but at that maximum
closed-down aperture, image is degraded by the optical limits of lens design. Nothing new here, but at least I know I'm getting the best possible
sharpness and depth if field possible for the equipment I have... Keep shootin', Doug

So you do Focus stacking which is a good method but when I have to cram 30 pictures on a saturday afternoon speed has its part. Obviously diffraction takes effect at max of f22 but it is the best sony lens for the job. (CZ 24-75 f2.8)

The reason I bought this up is I don't understand why a shorter 1/400 B737 looks worse than a longer 1/400 777
Been taken model photos for more than 20 years and this one does my nut in...
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

1. "when I have to cram 30 pictures on a saturday afternoon speed has its part": Got it - once you establish a reliable technique,
run with it. That's knowing your equipment well.

2. 737 versus 777: Maybe because the 737 is smaller, the camera is closer and the lens maybe nearer it's minimum focal distance.
With the twice larger 777, the camera probably moves further from the subject, allowing the lens more room to focus? That's just
a wild guess, and I may be way off mark. Doug.

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Old 09-20-2021, 04:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviaction View Post
Always been difficult to get adequate Depth of field (DoF) when taking piccies of model airplanes.
A long standing myth is an APS-c camera will give improved DoF over a Fullframe sensor. This is false and explanations are on the internet.
So just did a test with FF Sony 850 and CZ 24-75 all taken at f22. Main point of focus is front fuselage door
first pic is Full Frame 35mm
second is the A840 in APS-c mode
third is Sony A70 APS-c
All were cropped to similar size 1800 pixels or less, with no other processing.
..

...
I'm missing info on the most important contributing factors for DoF in your post: focal length and object distance. Where they const. in your pics?

As for the myth: yes, the sensor in itself has nothing to do with DoF. But as an APS-C simply crops the (full frame) lens, you either increase your distance (prime lens) or decrease your focal length to get the desired object into frame. Both increases DoF - and more so than what CoC would - in a theory - reduce DoF at the same time.
Which leads to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviaction View Post
...

The reason I bought this up is I don't understand why a shorter 1/400 B737 looks worse than a longer 1/400 777
Been taken model photos for more than 20 years and this one does my nut in...
Given a 100mm prime lens on a full frame sensor, you are roundabout 44cm distant for a 773 and only 18cm for a 732 - to get both filling your frame. At f22, that should be roundabout 2cm DoF for the 773 and less than 0.3cm for the 732. I hope I got the data correct quickly, but the numbers seem to make sens.
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Old 09-30-2021, 03:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom II View Post
I'm missing info on the most important contributing factors for DoF in your post: focal length and object distance. Where they const. in your pics?

As for the myth: yes, the sensor in itself has nothing to do with DoF. But as an APS-C simply crops the (full frame) lens, you either increase your distance (prime lens) or decrease your focal length to get the desired object into frame. Both increases DoF - and more so than what CoC would - in a theory - reduce DoF at the same time.
Which leads to this:



Given a 100mm prime lens on a full frame sensor, you are roundabout 44cm distant for a 773 and only 18cm for a 732 - to get both filling your frame. At f22, that should be roundabout 2cm DoF for the 773 and less than 0.3cm for the 732. I hope I got the data correct quickly, but the numbers seem to make sens.

Distance from lens and focal length were all the same. Pictures just cropped.


Surely all thing being equal the 732 should exhibit better dof than the longer 773?


I am playing with my tamron 16-300 which has small f stop. also have an old Sigma Pantel which goes to f:64
I am selling on teh Tilt Shift as stupidly did'nt notice it was 24mm. Really need the 80mm version
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Old 09-30-2021, 03:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviaction View Post
Distance from lens and focal length were all the same. Pictures just cropped.


Surely all thing being equal the 732 should exhibit better dof than the longer 773?


I am playing with my tamron 16-300 which has small f stop. also have an old Sigma Pantel which goes to f:64
I am selling on teh Tilt Shift as stupidly did'nt notice it was 24mm. Really need the 80mm version
When everythings constant then DoF should be it as well, consequently more of the 732 should appear sharp then the larger object 773. Though the 732 appears a lot smaller in frame then. You might consequently crop out the 732 more to fill your image which scaled to a const size blows up your pixels compared to the 773. This might reduce perceived sharpness on the 732, particularly when shooting at f22 or beyond.
But are you sure you shot both 773 and 732 at const distance and focal length? I'd think I'd automatically try to get closer or "zoom in" for a 732.
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Old 10-04-2021, 09:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

There used to be (if not still) a lens specially designed for close-up photography. I may be wrong, was called a Macro lens. I considered buying one, but never got around to it. Would be near useless now anyway as it would have been for a film camera and now I have a digital. Maybe they are made for digital cameras now too. Of course you may not want that extra expense.
Just a thought.
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Old 10-04-2021, 01:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

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Originally Posted by dboyd001 View Post
There used to be (if not still) a lens specially designed for close-up photography. I may be wrong, was called a Macro lens. I considered buying one, but never got around to it. Would be near useless now anyway as it would have been for a film camera and now I have a digital. Maybe they are made for digital cameras now too. Of course you may not want that extra expense.
Just a thought.
Dave

Yes also using a Sigma 105 Macro
But forgot I had a Tamron 16-300 which reviews well and focuses close. Not sure if it is much better small 1/400 737s and goes to f:40



Tamron 16-300







Sony 24-75


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Old 10-04-2021, 08:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I use a full frame camera with the 105 macro. It's a good lens to use for both macro and general shooting of my models. I also tend to shoot around f/20+. But for close up details, I will sometimes go down to f/2.8~7.1

I shoot about a metre away, and sure, you'll get some negative spaces, but they will be cropped away anyway.

Because I shoot next to a large window, I sometimes use flash to rid of the reflections.
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Old 10-05-2021, 08:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

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Originally Posted by B-KPA View Post
I use a full frame camera with the 105 macro. It's a good lens to use for both macro and general shooting of my models. I also tend to shoot around f/20+. But for close up details, I will sometimes go down to f/2.8~7.1

I shoot about a metre away, and sure, you'll get some negative spaces, but they will be cropped away anyway.

Because I shoot next to a large window, I sometimes use flash to rid of the reflections.

Thats about what I use, Sony Full Frame 105mm Macro and F:22 I use the 24-75 for larger subject 1/200 and 1/43 cars
The picture of G-BGJJ above is about as good as it gets, I think I expect too much This was taken f22 with Sony 24-75 CZ f2.8 which is about the best lens for Sony
Could you post a pic of any small 1/400 737s or similar?


thanks
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Old 10-07-2021, 08:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Sorry, the smallest 1:400 I have is the 777-300ER.
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Old 10-14-2021, 11:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Taking photos and Depth of Field

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviaction View Post
So you do Focus stacking which is a good method but when I have to cram 30 pictures on a saturday afternoon speed has its part. Obviously diffraction takes effect at max of f22 but it is the best sony lens for the job. (CZ 24-75 f2.8)

The reason I bought this up is I don't understand why a shorter 1/400 B737 looks worse than a longer 1/400 777
Been taken model photos for more than 20 years and this one does my nut in...
Thank you for turning me on to the term 'focus stacking', Just gave it a try on a 1:200 and had a good result, not the greatest but decent enough for me.
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