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Old 07-26-2021, 01:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

During my incessant search for a Swiss A330-300, I came across a fraudulent web site for the umpteenth time. Inspired by other threads on this forum warning us about scammers affecting our hobby, I decided to test how easy or difficult it is to take down such a web site. I myself have years of professional experience with the Belgian Federal Police, and now with the Belgian Justice Department, so my curiosity is naturally partly professionally "seasoned".

Of course, I know that if the shop were to be "taken down", it would probably be back in business after a week under a different name. What interests me most is the extent to which my report will have an effective impact, especially as I am not a victim. In other words, I can only say that I find some things very suspicious.

This is the "opportunity" I have come across:

http://www.weltensehen.de/jfox-jfa33...t-stander.html

I am also posting a screenshot here to immortalise this fantastic offer :



So as I stated before I decided to report this web site, just to see how easy, or difficult, it is to take down a fraudulent web site if you are not (yet) a victim of their activities. For reporting web sites using european country extensions, this page provides shortcuts to the reporting desks in the different European countries :

https://www.europol.europa.eu/report...ercrime-online

Because the site is hosted with a .de domain name I contacted the "Bundeskriminalambt" (German Federal Criminal Police). Now a dns lookup informed me of the fact the web site is probably hosted in the US, but that's still fine. Let's see if I get an answer, and of course what kind of answer. Again, I am curious because I expect they will tel me that I have to be a victim first...


For reference, below my declaration. The bottom line is that I say that this price is by no means normal for the product in question, which I can know, because I am aware of the prevailing prices in the aircraft modeling world, and that our community has been confronted with these "temptation techniques" on several occasions.


Sehr geehrte,

Aus meiner Erfahrung mit aktuellen Preisen stelle ich fest, dass der folgende Online-Shop mit hoher Wahrscheinlichkeit Betrug begeht, indem er das Vertrauen gegenüber dem Kunden missbraucht und die bestellten Artikel nicht oder andere, minderwertige Artikel versendet:

http://www.weltensehen.de/

Ich stütze mich dabei auf den folgenden Artikel, den ich auf der folgenden Webseite gefunden habe:

http://www.weltensehen.de/jfox-jfa33...t-stander.html

Als Sammler von Modellflugzeugen erkenne ich hier, womit unsere Sammlergemeinschaft typischerweise konfrontiert ist: Preise, die zu schön sind, um wahr zu sein. Ich habe diesen Artikel nicht bestellt, auch keinen anderen auf dieser Website. Ich bin also kein Opfer, aber ich erlaube mir, Ihnen mitzuteilen, dass mir dieser Laden sehr verdächtig vorkommt.

Für weitere Informationen stehe ich Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Falls dies rechtlich kein Hindernis darstellt, möchte ich über den weiteren Fortgang der Ereignisse auf dem Laufenden gehalten werden, sollten sich aus meinem Schreiben Ermittlungen ergeben oder Maßnahmen bezüglich dieser Website ergriffen werden.

Mit größtem Respekt,
XXXXX



So let's see of something comes out of this...
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Old 07-26-2021, 02:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Yeah, seen absolutely LOADS of these lately. and people still fall for it. DEAD giveaways are

1.CHEAP PRICES at around a Quarter of normal price.
2. multiples of RARE SOLD OUT models. on some if you check the description, its copied + pasted from an ebay listing!
3. postage is also DIRT CHEAP.
4. Weight of model in postage is way UNDER what they actually weigh.
5. and if you manage to check their certificate, its only just started and valid only a few months.
6. no apparent 'physical' address.

the old 'motto' is true. if it 'looks too good to be true, then it probably is'.

but as you say, if they take a site down, it will just pop up again under something else.

Rj.
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Old 07-26-2021, 02:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjon5 View Post
DEAD giveaways are

1.CHEAP PRICES at around a Quarter of normal price.
2. multiples of RARE SOLD OUT models. on some if you check the description, its copied + pasted from an ebay listing!
3. postage is also DIRT CHEAP.
4. Weight of model in postage is way UNDER what they actually weigh.
5. and if you manage to check their certificate, its only just started and valid only a few months.
6. no apparent 'physical' address.
Interesting bullet list Rj. Thank you for sharing this. It is a very useful check list and can help to protect our community against these criminals.

There are a few other things you can look out for :

If you take for example the web site eshowmysite that forum member suedflug99 cited in this thread, you notice a lot of weird things when clicking on icons or hyperlinked texts. For example the email address in the contact page not only has a bizarre domain name for an online shop, but there is also no link behind the text at all. Also the small facebook, Twitter, Youtube and Instagram logos direct you the home pages of the respective platforms, rather than the shop's account pages on these platforms (which are of course not existing). The Apple and Android logo's under "download app" do nothing when you click on them, the same goes for the three credit card logos under "Payment method", and the "Free shipping" and "Refund" logos at the top of the page. An ensemble of that many bizarre behaviors on one and the same site is normally always a sign that you didn't land on a legit web shop.

Also very often rather strange names that are given for these web shops or their URL's. For example, if I goolge "Ethiopian B787 1/200" (another one that I missed), I quickly see offers on web sites with url names like "alcoscan.ee" and "emanuelweb.org" that all redirect towards "baseaaliner.com" presenting you a web shop, titled "Global Order wholesale". So also paying attention to the url behind Google's result entry, and the url you finally are redirected to, can give you some clues, simply because you do not see this behaviour with normal web shops. For example, you directly go towards "AviationMegaStore.com" without being redirected in many strange ways.

In the end, they always want to do everything they can to make the site look as true to life as possible, but if you look at the small details, such as which URLs are behind hyperlinks, the domain name of the contact email address, and other things, they very often fall through the cracks very quickly.

Cheers, Dephalo
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Old 07-26-2021, 03:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

And of course another one ...

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Old 07-26-2021, 03:06 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

All we can do is post warnings here as we come across them. but will only ever be a drop in the ocean.
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Old 07-26-2021, 05:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

I am also checking if there's an imprint, if there is none, I doubt this sites serious.

Jan
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Old 07-27-2021, 04:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Quote:
Originally Posted by jawomba View Post
I am also checking if there's an imprint, if there is none, I doubt this sites serious.

Jan
Do you mean by that some kind of seal or other quality label Jan?

For example, like those :

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Old 07-27-2021, 03:41 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

No, I mean an impressum (= latin word). Imprint is similar and defined under UK law.

Afaik in germany it is ruled by law to state an impressum for websites.

You can find the responsible person for the content of the website incl. address UStID (like VAT?) and some futher leagle notes.

Jan
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Old 07-28-2021, 04:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Quote:
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No, I mean an impressum
Ah ok. I grew up with Löwenzahn on ZDF, so now I know what you mean, when you are using the word "Impressum".
Didn't know this was "imprint" in English. Here in Flanders we use "colofon" (in German it must be "Kolophon") for that.

Indeed an interesting check to add in our list. Thanks Jan.

Found a nice example :

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Old 07-28-2021, 05:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

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Originally Posted by deephalo View Post
Ah ok. I grew up with Löwenzahn on ZDF, so now I know what you mean, when you are using the word "Impressum".
Didn't know this was "imprint" in English. Here in Flanders we use "colofon" (in German it must be "Kolophon") for that.

Indeed an interesting check to add in our list. Thanks Jan.

Found a nice example :

I loved Löwenzahn - when I grew up it was with Peter Lustig

I am not sure if imprint is really the same but I used a translator so this was the result.

I don't know if there are many countries with such laws or regulations, but I would expect that for european countries.

Interesting with the wording "kolofon" deephalo - I heard already from imprint, but I didn't know "kolofon". Thanks!

best regards,
Jan
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Old 08-06-2021, 03:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Hello everybody
Just want to thank you for warning about this kind of scam sites. you really saved me from investing about 50$ (including shipping) in a rare model this site is offering.
https://www.huzhenlongw.com/
Their e-mail address under "contact us" is [email protected] which takes to nowhere.
Stay Safe
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Old 08-07-2021, 12:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabist View Post
...Just want to thank you for warning about this kind of scam sites. you really saved me from investing about 50$ (including shipping) in a rare model this site is offering...

You are very welcome. We should do this more often. Many of us will recognise such sites with our eyes closed by now, but we have a duty to continue to protect our community from any kind of fraud. And as the fraudsters become more and more intelligent in the methods they use, we must follow as quickly as possible in exposing their tricks...

No words can describe how pleased I am to read that this thread has prevented you from becoming a victim of these bastards. Even if it is "only" 50 dollars, it is still a lot of money if, in the end, you get nothing but frustration in return. I remember saying to myself when I opened this thread "if we can avoid even one case of fraud with this, then the thread will be useful". Mission accomplished! I am a very happy forum member now.

Cheers, Deephalo
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Old 08-07-2021, 01:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

In addition to the wonderful news that such warnings can prevent fellow collectors from being cheated, I also have an update on the file that I have opened with the German Federal Judicial Police (Bundeskriminalamt). Last Wednesday, I received the following response from these gentlemen:

Sehr geehrter Herr XXX,

vielen Dank für Ihre Nachricht an das Bundeskriminalamt (BKA).

Bitte wenden Sie sich an Ihre örtliche Polizeibehörde und erstatten Sie dort eine Anzeige. Schildern sie den Sachverhalt und stellen Sie ggf. vorliegende Unterlagen zur Verfügung. Ihre nationale Polizeibehörde wird die vorliegenden Informationen dann über die internationalen polizeilichen Informationskanäle an die deutsche Polizei weiterleiten, sofern das notwendig ist.

Sofern strafrechtlich relevante Sachverhalte vorliegen, sind aufgrund des föderalen Systems in Deutschland, in dem die Polizeihoheit gemäß dem Grundgesetz grundsätzlich bei den 16 Bundesländern liegt, die Polizeibehörden vor Ort zuständig. Die Aufgaben des BKA auf dem Gebiet der Strafverfolgung sind auf wenige, eng umrissene Bereiche beschränkt. Als Zentralstelle der deutschen Polizei werden wir die Informationen von Ihrer nationalen Polizeibehörde nach Erhalt an die örtlich zuständige Dienststelle in Deutschland weiterleiten.

Ich hoffe, dass ich Ihnen mit diesen Informationen weiterhelfen konnte.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Im Auftrag
Bürgerservice
Bundeskriminalamt


In short, they invite me to go to my local police authority and file a complaint there. And further, they state that my national police authority will then forward the available information to the German police via the international police information channels. And then further on some blabla, not relevant in any way for me personally, but no doubt to prevent making the answer too short, as that would make it appear that they are not interested.

I honestly did not expect to get the answer I was hoping for, but this answer? So, the first question that popped into my head after reading this was: "why on earth is an online platform made available for citizens to file a complaint, when the answer you get is that you just have to go to your local police authority?" Are we here witnessing yet another circus to give citizens the impression that they are safe through the online presence of the government that watches over us? I would really like to know, then, what on earth you can do with such a platform, which invites you with great persuasiveness to lodge complaints online, when you invariably get the answer that you just have to go and cry at the local office?

Now, besides warning about an online shop that looks suspicious, I really wanted to prove something here, but I will go into that in more detail at the end of my story. So the stupid answer I received from the Bundeskriminalamt did not stop me from doing what was suggested by them. I went to my local police station with the same information as the one with which I opened this thread and also the bullet points listed here earlier, to report "an online shop which had been most probably set up with a fraudulent intent". I did not do this with the expectation that I would be helped, and that a file would be opened, a judicial investigation would follow, etc. Again, I wanted to proove something, and the first question I was quickly asked was the one I was expecting: "Have you bought anything from this webshop yourself, sir?" Me: "No, all the elements I just mentioned stopped me from doing so. However, I would like everything to be done to gather sufficient evidence to take this shop offline, so that other people don't become victims." Unfortunately, the answer was also what I had expected: "Sorry sir but you are not technically a victim. You have to be a victim to have an interest in us taking action, unless you are a magistrate yourself of course. And also, why would you want to go to all that trouble. Even if we could have that shop taken offline, there would be two more as soon as we turned our back...".

I have to tell you that, although the outcome was entirely what I expected, it left me with a particularly bitter feeling. On the other hand, however, I was able to make my point, which is that we must protect each other as much as possible. The cases of fraud in our hobby will not decrease in the future. I very much welcome the initiatives we have already had on this forum to raise the issue of fraud.

Only informing and exposing as many things as possible will help us to avoid being the only very thing that will make it possible for us to really file a complaint and have a case opened: victim.

Cheers, Deephalo
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Old 08-07-2021, 03:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Hello Deephalo


I was happy for your response. It's not only the money the crooks can take from us but also the deep disappointment of supposedly finding a rare item, one that you have searched for a long time and in the end it turned out to be cheating. in today's technology, when crooks can close and open sites very quickly, maybe the best help and support we can get is from ourselves and not even from the authorities.
There are two sites that only after i typed their names under "search" here and found out that they are known and reliable i felt secure enough to buy from.
Maybe we should set up a database where members of the forum can update on scam sites matching the above mentioned characteristics bullets.
I feel this forum and this thread really helps especially to new collectors like me (a year and half) to avoid crooks when trying to achieve items can't be found even in E bay.


Again - thanks so much.
Stay safe
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Old 08-09-2021, 02:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Hello everyone.


Want to ask about a site that is probably reliable but I have a little doubt about it:
https://aeroclassicsdirect.com/


1. Website template too much close to https://www.jetcollector.com/ (Why)

2. When clicking "Estimate your Shipping " you get an error message.

3. When clicking "Contact us" you receive an error message (after "Challenge Question).



I may be wrong and the error messages may relates to my browser but I wanted to make sure someone knows them / bought there and it's really the famous Aeroclassics.

If I hurt someone from Aeroclassics please accept my apologize.



Regards
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Old 08-09-2021, 03:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fraudulous www.weltensehen.de

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maccabist View Post
If I hurt someone from Aeroclassics please accept my apologize.
I think you just saved your life with that disclaimer...

Just kidding. Its is legit. But it is always good to ask in case of any doubt !

Cheers, deephalo

Last edited by deephalo; 08-09-2021 at 03:10 PM.
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