Yep, the only facts are the aircraft is missing and no one has been in contact with it in a while now.
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
Chinese local media reporting that 4 passengers boarded with stolen passports. These 4 are people of interest to the Chinese security police, and have been described on the local news as "bad people".
While we all pray otherwise, instinct tells me that this is an act of terrorism,
and if so, a lot will be kept off the news while China does a quick house cleaning in Tibet & Xinjiang.
May the souls of those 235 innocent lives rest in peace.
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Chinese Terrorist, possible but unlikely with state of the art Security Checkpoints at airport. Maybe the pilot is defecting. Or just the aircraft experiencing complete malfunction or got attacked by an EMP weapon.
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The first thing I thought of was AF447....nearly same number of passengers, similar aircraft, same story.
Two accidents with 5 star Asian carriers flying 777s in less than one year...it's crazy. I wonder what could have brought it down. When they lost contact it was at cruise altitude, the safest part of the flight.
It doesn't mean much but my heart goes out to the friends and families affected by this tragedy.
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garuda747400
4 passengers now with stolen passports?
Yes, see my post above!! They were described in local Chinese media as "bad" people.
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I hear there's 2 stolen passports, but 4 passengers being investigated. Also, CNN reported that the tickets for the 2 passengers with the stolen passports were bought together.
The two stolen passports lead to the theory that terrorism was a main factor here. Al Qaida uses this method all the time. The target though doesn't make sense, Al Qaida doesn't have a grievance with China. One can wonder if this was a 'test run' for another real target. I don't believe Chinese terrorists if that's what Beijing is claiming would use passports bearing Italian and Austrian names. All we know is that whatever happened was very quick and extremely destructive which is indicative of an explosion disabling total power to the aircraft and probably occurred towards the front.
As was the case in Lockerbie, most if not all on board lost consciousness due to lack of oxygen at that altitude.
No matter what, our thoughts should be towards the surviving family members.
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If it was terrorist related; ususually the group that planned this horrific event steps up to the media and claims responsibility? Again, my thoughts an prayers to their families and loved ones.
I was very appalled by the media people in the airport terminal, they (media mob) were blocking the path for the family members/friends to get to the shuttle bus to transport them to the hotel. NO decency at all from the media for these grieving family members/friends of the passengers , where were the police/security to provide them a safe and clear path to get out of the terminal? I heard one grief stricken woman scream at the media as she was struggling to move past them = Do you not have any children of your own!!
The days of claiming responsibility are long gone. Terrorists have grown smarter over the years. Why claim responsibility and make yourself a retaliatory target? Terrorists send out subtle advance warnings now, hence the frequent travel advisories.
Many of these warnings can be false (or not) but they nonetheless cause fear, panic and disruptions to millions.
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The two stolen passports lead to the theory that terrorism was a main factor here.
It can lead to that possibility, but it doesn't have to. It shouldn't be surprising to learn there were passengers flying with stolen or fake documents. It's probably happening right now, right this minute, on other aircraft around the world, which will all safely reach their destinations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
If it was terrorist related; ususually the group that planned this horrific event steps up to the media and claims responsibility?
That isn't necessarily true. Go through different events and see if the culprits claimed responsibility within a couple days. Take PA103, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ELY707
The days of claiming responsibility are long gone.
Sometimes, all sorts of non-credible people or groups claim responsibility after an event. Maybe to gain publicity, I don't know.
well yahoo news is saying 'SUSPECT FRAGMENTS FOUND' time will tell if true and whether it broke up inflight or after hitting the sea.
Suspected fragments from the missing Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 239 people have been found off Vietnam.
The Vietnamese navy said objects, one thought to be an aircraft door, were spotted by a rescue plane off the country's south coast.
Security services are investigating whether the Boeing 777-200 was destroyed in a terror attack.
Interpol said at least two passports used on the flight were stolen and it is "examining additional suspect passports".
The international police agency said it was of "great concern" that passengers were able to board the plane using stolen passports, and no checks were made against its database.
Flight MH370 disappeared two days ago off Vietnam's south coast.
The search area has been widened after radar data indicated the plane may have turned back.
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That isn't necessarily true. Go through different events and see if the culprits claimed responsibility within a couple days. Take PA103, for example.
Sometimes, all sorts of non-credible people or groups claim responsibility after an event. Maybe to gain publicity, I don't know.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I stated 'usually' some group will come forward, I didn't say always.
For sure with you on that = The groups that do come forward after such tragic events, some are legit and some are just doing it for whatever whacked out reasons to put the spotlight on their cause/group.
Praying this MAS flight had nothing do with terrorism; but until all the facts are gathered = Everybody and their grandma are going to speculate.
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonCollector
and how do the local chinese media know already who the mystery passengers are?
APIS.
All airlines are required to transmit data to destination country prior to aircraft's departure!
Chinese security police monitor these lists, and usually with quite scrutiny.
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All airlines are required to transmit data to destination country prior to aircraft's departure!
Chinese security police monitor these lists, and usually with quite scrutiny.
So.. you are saying that the people who traveled on stolen passports provided both their real names, and their fake identities, to the airline?
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
Please read above. There were "4 'bad' people" on board flagged by China;
Two they knew from the real names. The other two are obviously frauds, however with the CCTV capturing images of all boarding, Chinese intelligence obviously knows whom they are concentrating on, and their supporters.
There's a lot which is not being said, and there's a lot of reading between the lines. Malaysia is remaining quite tight lipped on the whole affair, and China is also being selective on the info it feeds the local market, which I believe is still more than foreign media is catching. 152 Chinese nationals perished, so China must come clean to it's population on what it knows.
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I think you're giving too much credence to the reporting you've seen, that you are willing to say the 2 pax with stolen passports are already identified, and are people who were already of interest to Chinese security before this incident.
Undoubtedly the authorities have more information than we do (for example, we haven't seen the CCTV footage of the stolen-passport passengers), but I still wouldn't take some vague media reports on a fast-moving story like this as meaning anything.
Please read above. There were "4 'bad' people" on board flagged by China;
Two they knew from the real names. The other two are obviously frauds, however with the CCTV capturing images of all boarding, Chinese intelligence obviously knows whom they are concentrating on, and their supporters.
There's a lot which is not being said, and there's a lot of reading between the lines. Malaysia is remaining quite tight lipped on the whole affair, and China is also being selective on the info it feeds the local market, which I believe is still more than foreign media is catching. 152 Chinese nationals perished, so China must come clean to it's population on what it knows.
I've followed closely most major aviation crashes for several years including this one. There is a noticeable lack of detail about the news coming out on this incident. There was a delay in even admitting the aircraft was missing. The airline and the governments involve know more than what we are hearing. And when you look at the governments and the airline involved they have a lot of control over details released.
I've followed closely most major aviation crashes for several years including this one. There is a noticeable lack of detail about the news coming out on this incident. There was a delay in even admitting the aircraft was missing. The airline and the governments involve know more than what we are hearing. And when you look at the governments and the airline involved they have a lot of control over details released.
That can just be a function of the obvious though - that the wreckage hasn't been found yet. If a debris field had been found already, then you'd be hearing a lot of details. and unlike AF447, there isn't a string of interesting ACARS messages to look over.
First fact: The "mystery pax" don't have PEK as their final destination. Why would China worry?
Italian and Austrian name on the passports with Chinese faces, and Chines Authorities already knew them before they get board?
I have a difficulty to understand this...
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
Quote:
Originally Posted by aritrixa
First fact: The "mystery pax" don't have PEK as their final destination. Why would China worry?
Italian and Austrian name on the passports with Chinese faces, and Chines Authorities already knew them before they get board?
I have a difficulty to understand this...
Uyger do not have Chinese faces either.
The reason they booked the same connecting flights onto Europe is that China does not require visa for 72 hours stay, and would therefore not even scrutinize their entry until arrival, which in my theory, was never to happen.
Malaysia has JUST reported that the 2 individuals entered Malaysia ILLEGALLY and true identities are now known to them. For some reason they are withholding the info.
After close to 70 hours, still no trace of the aircraft. The oil slick in the sea between Malaysia and Vietnam was not composed of jet fuel. The "door" the Vietnamese spotted was not an aircraft door.
This still remains a complete mystery!!
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I know there has been yet another debris field sighted off the coast of Vietnam - but it doesn't seem to make any sense given its current location and normal currents in the SCS. The A/C would have to have crashed a lot further up the coast of Vietnam for this new debris field to have drifted to this location in 2 days.
Personally - I think they are looking in the wrong place, and need to start looking on land in Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam - somewhere distant enough inland where wreckage wouldn't be immediately seen.
Anyone else agree it's not a stretch to eliminate the following scenarios, for the following reasons?
1. Midair explosion - odds are someone would have reported a fireball - either on land, or from a ship - because something exploding at 39K feet would be visible for a long way. Also - a 777 exploding at 39K would litter the surface with debris. It would have been seen.
2. Mechanical Failure - unless the aircraft was hit with an EMP pulse (no SciFi here, please) - a serious engine failure would have most likely resulted in the ACARS sending something, and even more likely resulted in a Mayday call. Some communication - there wasn't any. The plane went dark - all systems, almost immediately. If this was mechanical failure - it would have to be something we haven't seen before.
3. Hypoxia on board - the transponder would have stayed on even if everyone on board went unconcious or dead - there would have been transponder returns. If something like the Payne Stewart scenario had occured here - I think the story would have been ATC following the A/C losing altitude until it hit the ocean.
So to me - the only thing I can start thinking is - all the data and communications from the A/C were cut off at one moment - and (as explained above) - I can't think that was from an explosion. Add in the two passports/tickets purchased under what appear to be extremely shady circumstances - and I think 'aircraft commandeered.' And then attempt to fly it at low level until at some point - things ended badly. Perhaps crashed inland - or maybe in a direction no one has thought to look.
- which, admittedly, leaves open the question of "why/how did they gain entrance to the cockpit" - why not squawking over ATC?
EMP is not sci-fi, its real. Its just that its not common to use EMP.
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Exactly. And while this certainly isn't a "hardened" Aircraft capable of dealing with it, my "SciFi" comment was to say "what is the likelihood of that? None. Except in fantasy" An EMP pulse would have affected a lot more in the area - and something like a 'directed EMP pulse' does fall into the SciFi realm in terms of explanations.
I included the EMP observation as a seriously unlikely cause - about as likely as a meteor taking out the airplane.
My bet? This bird is somewhere else, other than the water. Bottom of the Thai/Laotian/Vietnamese pensinsula - right into a hillside. Could be wrong, but it's not going to surprise me if they find it inland in many pieces.
I agree with you, it is highly unlikely it could have been hit by an EMP. If someone or something wants to attack/sabotage it, a Surface-to-Air Missile would have done a better job.
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The reason they booked the same connecting flights onto Europe is that China does not require visa for 72 hours stay, and would therefore not even scrutinize their entry until arrival, which in my theory, was never to happen.
Malaysia has JUST reported that the 2 individuals entered Malaysia ILLEGALLY and true identities are now known to them. For some reason they are withholding the info.
After close to 70 hours, still no trace of the aircraft. The oil slick in the sea between Malaysia and Vietnam was not composed of jet fuel. The "door" the Vietnamese spotted was not an aircraft door.
This still remains a complete mystery!!
I just read the two traveling with the stolen passports were traveling together, purchased their tickets at the same time and place and they were one-way tickets.
There was also talk of 5 other passengers who didn't show up for the flight:
It was announced on Mar. 10 that five passengers checked in for Flight MH370 but did not get on the plane. Their luggage was removed just before the plane took off, according to Mail Online. As of now, it has not been revealed why the people decided not to get on the flight.
Did anybody else on this thread hear about the mystery 5 pax? The airline mentioned that their luggage was 'off loaded'? Did these 5 know something was going to transpire on the flight?
This is a total mystery to date as others have posted above. Glad this thread has been a bit more civil towards each contributing poster. Unlike the other thread in 1:1 section = unfortunately, there are some small fireworks going on over there. Cheers! T7
This thing is maddening. No hypothesis seems to make any sense. Somebody really needs to find the plane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff H
right into a hillside. Could be wrong, but it's not going to surprise me if they find it inland in many pieces.
I'm thinking the same thing. I don't know how it would get to land without anybody knowing, but at this point if they can't find the wreckage at sea, maybe it's in some isolated land area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Tupolev
I just read the two traveling with the stolen passports were traveling together, purchased their tickets at the same time and place and they were one-way tickets.
that story seems to have broken on anet, of all places. Bought the day before, in cash, from a travel agent in pattaya.
Apparently at the request of some iranian.
Clearly something shady going on, but there's no particular reason to think it's connected to the flight disappearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
There was also talk of 5 other passengers who didn't show up for the flight:
This is a total mystery to date as others have posted above. Glad this thread has been a bit more civil towards each contributing poster. Unlike the other thread in 1:1 section = unfortunately, there are some small fireworks going on over there. Cheers! T7
The story of the five passengers was first reported some time ago. I don't see that as being necessarily being interesting. People miss flights all the time. Often after a plane crash, you hear stories of lucky people who missed the flight for some reason or other.
If we had active mods here, they would just merge the two parallel discussions.
The story of the five passengers was first reported some time ago. I don't see that as being necessarily being interesting. People miss flights all the time. Often after a plane crash, you hear stories of lucky people who missed the flight for some reason or other.
If we had active mods here, they would just merge the two parallel discussions.
Hi AnonCollector, was the 5 passenger item discussed on the DAC forum already? I can't seem to find it, would appreciate your help in locating the post(s).
Yes, missing a flight is common and I've been a party to that (thanks to my smuck of a travel agent one time when I was connecting in HK). I saw one gentlemen on NBC news tonight that he was originally booked on this 'doomed' flight, but changed his mind and re-booked at a later date/time.
Hi AnonCollector, was the 5 passenger item discussed on the DAC forum already? I can't seem to find it, would appreciate your help in locating the post(s).
Yes, missing a flight is common and I've been a party to that (thanks to my smuck of a travel agent one time when I was connecting in HK). I saw one gentlemen on NBC news tonight that he was originally booked on this 'doomed' flight, but changed his mind and re-booked at a later date/time.
Maybe not here, but airliners.net and I think also news websites
If you want to hear news quickly, or at least what little news there is to hear, you typically won't hear it on this website first.
Bottom of the Thai/Laotian/Vietnamese pensinsula - right into a hillside. Could be wrong, but it's not going to surprise me if they find it inland in many pieces.
I just studied a geological map of the southern tip of Viet Nam/Cambodia. Its all flat river delta/rice patties. This truly is a mystery.
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Re: Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
The Malaysian government has still not released the names of the 2 individuals traveling on the stolen passports, sporting speculation (from me) that the Muslim names would prove a true embarrassment to the Malaysian government.
I hope I am wrong!!
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It's a majority muslim country. Why would a couple muslim passengers be any more embarrassing than any other religion, to be carrying the stolen passports? The main point of embarrassment is that they weren't checking the interpol database, and (presumably) the passport photo doesn't look anything like the person. [I guess it remains possible that the passports were stolen, and then in thailand somebody used the stolen passport as a model to create a fake passport with a different photograph]
In any case, the Iranian guy who paid for the tickets is saying the 2 pax were Iranians simply hoping to illegally migrate to Europe.
Authorities will check up on that story, but I will not be at all surprised if it turns out these 2 passengers are just an irrelevant distraction.
There must be passengers flying quite routinely with fake or stolen passports - this should not be seen as unusual.
Maybe not here, but airliners.net and I think also news websites
If you want to hear news quickly, or at least what little news there is to hear, you typically won't hear it on this website first.
Yeah, I checked out A.net, man they have so many threads/posts (last time I checked they were at Part 10).
Saw this article:
Malyasia Airlines fined for falsifying passport information on 2 known occasions:
Malaysia Airlines was convicted two years ago for boarding a passenger against the wishes of a foreign government by falsifying passport identity records, it has emerged, and was also prosecuted for a similar incident in 2007.
A New Zealand court fined the Malaysian national carrier NZ$5,500 (HK$36,052) in 2012 for allowing a passenger to board its aircraft despite orders not to from immigration authorities in Wellington.
It is unclear why the Malaysian national had been deemed unsuitable to board the flight.
During the breach, which occurred in January 2012, a check-in attendant enabled a Malaysian national to board the flight from Kuala Lumpur to Auckland by entering an altered passport number into the check-in computer, allowing security systems to be circumvented.
It is not clear whether it was a rogue check-in attendant or whether clearance to allow the passenger to board came from management at the airline.
The revelation follows confirmation that at least two passengers boarded missing Malaysia Airlines flight 370 in Kuala Lumpur with stolen passports, while another passenger held a fake passport. Four passengers in total are under suspicion and an investigation is underway into how such a major security breach could occur.
“Our border systems are designed to prevent people who are ineligible for entry to New Zealand from being allowed to board aircraft offshore,” Peter Elms, an official from Immigration New Zealand, said in a statement at the time of the 2012 prosecution.
“On receiving passenger information at check-in we provide the airline with a directive on whether they can allow the passenger to board or not.
“In this case, on receiving the directive not to board the passenger, the check-in attendant entered an altered passport number, allowing our systems to be circumvented.”
Airlines had a responsibility to meet their obligations under immigration law to maintain the integrity of New Zealand’s immigration system and border security, the statement added.
The statement from the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment in 2012 also said that Malaysia Airlines was prosecuted for a similar offence in April 2007.
A spokesman for Malaysia Airlines said no one at the company was available to comment on the conviction.
However, Hugh Dunleavy, an executive vice president at Malaysia Airlines, told the Daily Telegraph on the subject of security checks that it was not the carrier’s responsibility to validate a passport.
“We just need to make sure that if we see a passport, it doesn’t look like it has been forged and it has a legitimate visa. If it all looks legitimate and everything else about the customer is legitimate we will load them on the plane,” Dunleavy said.
The 2012 event demonstrated at the time how passport checks could still be circumvented at the airport.
The fine was issued by Auckland’s Manukau District Court for failing to comply with New Zealand’s Immigration Act 2009.
That seems strange to me. If true, I would tend to think that was a rogue employee, because I think the airline is responsible for flying somebody back, if it flies a passenger to a country when it is clear they are not allowed to enter (or in this case apparently, pays fines)- so it'd be pretty stupid for an airline to make a policy of doing stuff like that.
The two mistery pax, the China's enemy of the state (as per post #22) are actually Iranian??
Please let me re-simulate what might possibly happen with the stolen passport:
1. It was stolen couple years ago in Phuket
2. Two men bought the ticket in Pattaya using the fake/stolen passport to imigrate illegally
to Europe
3. They entered Malaysia in order to get onboard MH370
Why on earth would they bother themselves to travel to Kuala Lumpur first? Why don't they book BKK-AMS-CPH or wahatever route they may pick, if the final destinantion is Europe.
Either they are reeeeaaallllly stupid, or having too much money to spend.....or?
This stollen passports issue seemed become a major suspect, and keeping aside the technical issue discussions around the world.
I will not be surprised at the end, this two mistery pax story is just another coincidence, and not the cause of the problem. Just simply because it is an interesting story that never been revealed in a day to day routine activity. It is just a story.
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Thanks, Anon. That does make any sense. Sounds very legit.
Although they have to sum it up with the BKK-KUL airfares, and now for the sake of fairness, everybody's eyes must look at the airline and the border agents in Thailand whether they also counter-check the interpol data on stolen passport.
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Apparently, one of the stolen passports was being used by a Iranian, 19 years old, apparently looking to connect to Germany to seek Asylum. No known links to any terror groups. His mother is already in Frankfurt and was expecting him.
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Apparently, one of the stolen passports was being used by a Iranian, 19 years old, apparently looking to connect to Germany to seek Asylum. No known links to any terror groups. His mother is already in Frankfurt and was expecting him.
You can see pictures of the two guys there. Somehow Klein's Uighurs turned into Persians.
Clearly, this guy going to be with his mother is known by local Chinese media to be a 'bad guy'...
I'll keep saying it - this stolen passport story could very well just be a distraction.
Thanks, Anon. That does make any sense. Sounds very legit.
Although they have to sum it up with the BKK-KUL airfares, and now for the sake of fairness, everybody's eyes must look at the airline and the border agents in Thailand whether they also counter-check the interpol data on stolen passport.
There's also some talk out there that asylum seekers believe this sort of routing is a viable way to get to a new life in Europe. don't know if there's anything to that, but it's another bit of rumor to throw on the pile, I guess.
You can see pictures of the two guys there. Somehow Klein's Uighurs turned into Persians.
Clearly, this guy going to be with his mother is known by local Chinese media to be a 'bad guy'...
I'll keep saying it - this stolen passport story could very well just be a distraction.
Exactly - the BBC News reported that one was a 19 yr old Iranian Asylem seeker trying to get to Europe. The two guys didn't request to join this flight, the Travel Agent chose it for them as the easiest and cheapest route for them. I think we can disregard this 'stolen passports' reason.
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DC-8s still needed to be done in 1/400: Air Ceylon, Air Spain, Seaboard World (-63CF)
Comets still missing- Dan Air (4 & 4C), United Arab Airlines/Misrair/Egyptair, Kuwait AW, Sudan AW, East African AW, Saudi Royal Flt.
Caravelles still not made: Luxair, Air Algerie,SABENA (final scheme), Libyan Arab Airlines, SAS ( SCANDINAVIAN titles scheme)
Ilyushin IL-18s still not made: Tarom (billboard,) Malev (1st scheme),Cubana, Balkan/ Tabso-Bulgarian Air Transport,
Now, it is clear to me that all the news and media that tell China authorities have all superpower to monitor any "bad guy" that might harm their country - is just a such not more than a bedtime story.
In my opinion, that any terrorism activities can be ruled out now from the possible cause list....
Quote:
I will not be surprised at the end, this two mistery pax story is just another coincidence, and not the cause of the problem. Just simply because it is an interesting story that never been revealed in a day to day routine activity. It is just a story
Move on, next....
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Now, it is clear to me that all the news and media that tell China authorities have all superpower to monitor any "bad guy" that might harm their country - is just a such not more than a bedtime story.
In my opinion, that any terrorism activities can be ruled out now from the possible cause list....
.
it isn't chinese authorities who look bad; it's klein's ability to critically process the information that comes his way
you can't rule out terrorism yet. that was always a possibility, regardless of the stolen passport story.
Malasia Airlines 777-200 Missing
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