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Old 04-25-2009, 11:41 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mystère View Post
I don't get it, why model cars should be metal (and thus prone to the ill-fate you're mentionning) and model planes shouldn't ? Going this way, plastic model cars should be preferable too.
I don't know how I missed responding to this, but the reason metal cars are preferred is the one I gave...they need the tactile feeling of weight and solidity to add to the "experience" of handling the model. Although I do pick up and examine my airplanes, I don't feel the need to have them be "heavy" to enjoy looking at them. Unless you own some of the larger scale model cars, you might not understand what I mean. Some of my metal cars are admittedly starting to have paint finish issues that may be related to zinc rot (though this is speculation at this point...it's a minor "roughing" of the finish), but I still wouldn't want to buy plastic car models. I might build them, but not collect them.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:29 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Something interesting ?

Was a comparison done between AC, DW and Boeing? I remember my
father complaining about what a reliability pain in the a$$ the 377s were.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:41 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: Something interesting ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gospodin View Post
I don't know how I missed responding to this, but the reason metal cars are preferred is the one I gave...they need the tactile feeling of weight and solidity to add to the "experience" of handling the model. Although I do pick up and examine my airplanes, I don't feel the need to have them be "heavy" to enjoy looking at them. Unless you own some of the larger scale model cars, you might not understand what I mean. Some of my metal cars are admittedly starting to have paint finish issues that may be related to zinc rot (though this is speculation at this point...it's a minor "roughing" of the finish), but I still wouldn't want to buy plastic car models. I might build them, but not collect them.
Still not convincing enough to me. Unless you "play" with your cars, they're intended to be left in cabinets where the "tactile experience" is close to nil. And plastic allows better details than metal.
Anyway, the real point wasn't as much as a war between plastic and metal but this unpredicted move from metal to plastic in our airliners models. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer going this way (it seems to be the opposite), and price should be adjusted accordingly as plastic isn't as costly as metal to produce (mould costs, workers skills, and so on). So, is it possible to have Mr K's toughts on this (preferably without being insulted) ?
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Still not convincing enough to me. Unless you "play" with your cars, they're intended to be left in cabinets where the "tactile experience" is close to nil. And plastic allows better details than metal.
Anyway, the real point wasn't as much as a war between plastic and metal but this unpredicted move from metal to plastic in our airliners models. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer going this way (it seems to be the opposite), and price should be adjusted accordingly as plastic isn't as costly as metal to produce (mould costs, workers skills, and so on). So, is it possible to have Mr K's toughts on this (preferably without being insulted) ?
It's like I stated, you have to be a diecast car collector to appreciate the heft of these models. They don't just sit on my shelf, either...I periodically pick them up and open doors, hoods, trunks etc and always see more detail I missed the last time I looked. Plastic just doesn't impart the same feel. BTW, plastic (and especially resin) can actually cost as much or more than metal, especially if it's petroleum-based. The dies have to impart more detail, so are costlier to make, the process of injection-moulding or spin-casting tends to be higher, and production losses are also higher (from badly cast or warped products...happens a lot with plastic and resin). Advantages to plastic or resin: No rot, colors can be moulded in, higher detail. Disadvantages: Doesn't "feel" right, not enough weight...hmmm, sounds like my argument for model cars....
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Old 04-27-2009, 07:55 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Ihave the same model, and was pleased with it. If it means we have more to choose from, and adds to the accuracy, then I have no problem with plastic.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:09 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystère View Post
I don't get it, why model cars should be metal (and thus prone to the ill-fate you're mentionning) and model planes shouldn't ? Going this way, plastic model cars should be preferable too.
BTW, the zinc rot issue surfaced during the '30s (!) in the model/toy industry and was swiftly solved then. I still have old Dinky Toys from my father when he was a child (ie in the '50s), and apart from the play wear and crumbling rubber tires (the reason why I don't like rubber tires on our models), they're ok and do not show any sign of zinc rot. So pretending it's a step toward better models longevity doesn't stand, especially considering plastic has its issues too.
I note that our fellows from "the other" forum tend to stay away from this thread, is it a sign ?
I prefer metal cars as most collectors do.

Cars have opening/moving parts and Airplanes not as much, I believe is better to have the opening/closin parts and mechanism in metal-
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:24 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Lighter materials were used in the AC Stratocruiser so the model would be properly balanced. I suggest that those who find these materials objectionable should not buy the model.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:33 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Lighter materials were used in the AC Stratocruiser so the model would be properly balanced. I suggest that those who find these materials objectionable should not buy the model.
You really think we're that dumb ? How the SAME part would be differently balanced depending upon the material it's made from ? In our universe, physics don't work this way, but maybe we're not living in the same one...
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:39 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by David Hingtgen View Post
Weren't some very early AC fuselages spin-cast?
yes ... the old decaled ones were spin cast like the western models models ...
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:16 PM   #60 (permalink)
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You really think we're that dumb ?
Apparantly yes
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:45 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KenB View Post
Lighter materials were used in the AC Stratocruiser so the model would be properly balanced. I suggest that those who find these materials objectionable should not buy the model.
The thing that might have sent flags up with the plastic fuselage is that it's not mentioned on the packaging or as a brand new process.

A fully plastic model is kind of revolutionary for AC...one would think it would be heralded as such. The truly positive side of this new process is that it should solve any questions related to zinc rot .

A side note: For years many scoffed at DW's plastic wings. Now we have a fully plastic model. I'm thinking the fidelity of scribe lines and details on the fuselage is only going to be better with plastic...as Dragon Wings has shown us with their castings of wings,pylons, engines, etc.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:29 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I just want to say one word.

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Old 04-28-2009, 07:40 PM   #63 (permalink)
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For The Record, Plastic Fuselage For Aeroclassics Models Is Not That New Or Revolutionary.
The Model 049/749 Models Are Plastic Fuselage, Plastic Tail Assembly With Metal Wings
& Metal Props.
Also For The Record, I'm Reasonably Happy With The Two 049 Pan Ams I Have. Of Course The Real Issue Here Is 39.00 Or More For A Plastic Propliner. Yup I Agree It's A Bit Much (Well OK, Waaayyyy Too Much)

Metal Vs Plastic.
I've Always Advocated Material Is Immaterial. The Metal Only Camp Will Have You Believe The Metal Is Some Kind Of Platinum Plated Aircraft Grade Aluminum Or Something, But It's All Bull Schit. These Models Are Made Of The Lowest Grade Metals Known To Man, So I Don't Buy the Metal As Being Better Than Plastic.
For Me Accuracy Is Paramount Over all Other Considerations. That's Why To This Day I'll Argue Black & Blue With Anyone Many Dragon Wings Models Blow Everything Else Out Of The Water.

My 2c On That Tail Dragging Issue.
Well, I'd Prefer A Model To Sit On It's Own Rather Than On A Chock. That's Why the AC 1049 Wins Over The DW (Among Many Accuracy Issues)

The Nitty Gritty Between AC/DW B-377.
Well I Never Liked The DW Version. Though The Fuselage Is Well Done, The Cockpit Isn't & The Wings Are Terrible.
Those Plastic Props That Don't Spin Doesn't Gain Any Brownie Points For DW Either.
The AC Is Obviously Superior Over The DW, However The Fuselage Is Not All That Accurate. For My Money, I'd Want Better Than These Two Offerings. Not That I'd Pay 40 Bucks For A Propliner Anyway.

The Politics.
While It Shouldn't Be The Deciding Factor For Your Purchase, The Political Hypocracy & Business Ethics Is Somewhat Shady & Can't Be Ignored.
Andrew's Disdain For Plastic Is Well Documented In ALL Forums, DAC, 400SH , The Buzz & Wings 900.
Then You Have The Dog. Out Of 10,000+ Posts More Than Half Of Them Contain
Plastic = Toy
Metal = Collectible
Yet Here He Is Defending The B-377 With A Plastic Fuselage. (And The 049/749 In The Past As Well)
What Does This All Mean? Nothing Really Except The Hypocrasy Is Transparent
As Is The Hush Hush Cloak And Dagger Approach To Bringing These Models To Market.
It Is well Documented Andrew Treats The Collectorate Like They're Stupid, And This Is Only A Prime Example.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:46 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Something interesting ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by L-1011-Heavy View Post
For The Record, Plastic Fuselage For Aeroclassics Models Is Not That New Or Revolutionary.
The Model 049/749 Models Are Plastic Fuselage, Plastic Tail Assembly With Metal Wings
& Metal Props.
Also For The Record, I'm Reasonably Happy With The Two 049 Pan Ams I Have. Of Course The Real Issue Here Is 39.00 Or More For A Plastic Propliner. Yup I Agree It's A Bit Much (Well OK, Waaayyyy Too Much)

Metal Vs Plastic.
I've Always Advocated Material Is Immaterial. The Metal Only Camp Will Have You Believe The Metal Is Some Kind Of Platinum Plated Aircraft Grade Aluminum Or Something, But It's All Bull Schit. These Models Are Made Of The Lowest Grade Metals Known To Man, So I Don't Buy the Metal As Being Better Than Plastic.
For Me Accuracy Is Paramount Over all Other Considerations. That's Why To This Day I'll Argue Black & Blue With Anyone Many Dragon Wings Models Blow Everything Else Out Of The Water.

My 2c On That Tail Dragging Issue.
Well, I'd Prefer A Model To Sit On It's Own Rather Than On A Chock. That's Why the AC 1049 Wins Over The DW (Among Many Accuracy Issues)

The Nitty Gritty Between AC/DW B-377.
Well I Never Liked The DW Version. Though The Fuselage Is Well Done, The Cockpit Isn't & The Wings Are Terrible.
Those Plastic Props That Don't Spin Doesn't Gain Any Brownie Points For DW Either.
The AC Is Obviously Superior Over The DW, However The Fuselage Is Not All That Accurate. For My Money, I'd Want Better Than These Two Offerings. Not That I'd Pay 40 Bucks For A Propliner Anyway.

The Politics.
While It Shouldn't Be The Deciding Factor For Your Purchase, The Political Hypocracy & Business Ethics Is Somewhat Shady & Can't Be Ignored.
Andrew's Disdain For Plastic Is Well Documented In ALL Forums, DAC, 400SH , The Buzz & Wings 900.
Then You Have The Dog. Out Of 10,000+ Posts More Than Half Of Them Contain
Plastic = Toy
Metal = Collectible
Yet Here He Is Defending The B-377 With A Plastic Fuselage. (And The 049/749 In The Past As Well)
What Does This All Mean? Nothing Really Except The Hypocrasy Is Transparent
As Is The Hush Hush Cloak And Dagger Approach To Bringing These Models To Market.
It Is well Documented Andrew Treats The Collectorate Like They're Stupid, And This Is Only A Prime Example.
Thanks for that 1011. Thats why the mantra for many is "Buy what you like"
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:42 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I don't think the term "diecast" is exclusive to metal. You can just as easily put plastic into a die and cast it, right?
When it comes to diecast, it has to be metal. Otherwise I can't be called diecast. Can someone help with the name used for molding plastics? Is it 'injected' plastic: PVC, etc.?
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:52 PM   #66 (permalink)
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It's like I stated, you have to be a diecast car collector to appreciate the heft of these models. They don't just sit on my shelf, either...I periodically pick them up and open doors, hoods, trunks etc and always see more detail I missed the last time I looked. Plastic just doesn't impart the same feel. BTW, plastic (and especially resin) can actually cost as much or more than metal, especially if it's petroleum-based. The dies have to impart more detail, so are costlier to make, the process of injection-moulding or spin-casting tends to be higher, and production losses are also higher (from badly cast or warped products...happens a lot with plastic and resin). Advantages to plastic or resin: No rot, colors can be moulded in, higher detail. Disadvantages: Doesn't "feel" right, not enough weight...hmmm, sounds like my argument for model cars....
I'm with you 100%. I have the same thoughts. I collect aircraft and cars in diecast and they just don't feel the same when compared to the plastic models. I used to build my own Ravel and such aircraft and when I started collecting diecast they just couldn't compare.

Maybe the feel of sturdiness, duraility and quality of diecast is the key. I have also experienced inferior quality on plastic models. I would not buy Dragon because they simply don't offer me a better model than diecast. Even if they are able to produce more types because they're cheaper to make.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:09 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travertineeye View Post
When it comes to diecast, it has to be metal. Otherwise I can't be called diecast. Can someone help with the name used for molding plastics? Is it 'injected' plastic: PVC, etc.?
You have injection moulding, spin casting and vacuum moulding.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:20 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travertineeye View Post
When it comes to diecast, it has to be metal. Otherwise I can't be called diecast. Can someone help with the name used for molding plastics? Is it 'injected' plastic: PVC, etc.?
I understand that the term is typically referred to casting out of metal but it's still die cast if the material is plastic. Instead of injecting metal into a die, you are injecting plastic.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:31 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Die casting specifically refers to metal. The process is different for plastic.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:48 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Die casting specifically refers to metal. The process is different for plastic.
As politely as I can Steve, NO IT IS NOT!!
Do you work with such machinery?

The only difference between the two, is the material used, and the temperatures they are melted at.
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:59 AM   #71 (permalink)
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As politely as I can Steve, NO IT IS NOT!!
Do you work with such machinery?

The only difference between the two, is the material used, and the temperatures they are melted at.
The nearest I've come to such machinery is just reading about it, so I retract my statement since obviously, you would know better. I would still be fascinated by a picture tour of your factory, something I think all the collectors would find interesting....
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:11 AM   #72 (permalink)
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The nearest I've come to such machinery is just reading about it, so I retract my statement since obviously, you would know better. I would still be fascinated by a picture tour of your factory, something I think all the collectors would find interesting....
Bryan Lang wrote quite a lengthy essay last year after his factory visit which you may find interesting. It was posted on Buzz & 400SH. There were no photos though!
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:16 AM   #73 (permalink)
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As politely as I can Steve, NO IT IS NOT!!
Do you work with such machinery?

The only difference between the two, is the material used, and the temperatures they are melted at.
..... I have, but anything I would write would result in some ad hominum attack so I'll not respond any further.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:28 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Thank you Heavy, I guess you said it all (and better than I could).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gospodin View Post
Die casting specifically refers to metal. The process is different for plastic.
In fact a dictionnary will tell you that diecast is valid for both metal and plastic. In the mind of collectors it definitely refers to metal though.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:28 AM   #75 (permalink)
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As politely as I can Steve, NO IT IS NOT!!
Do you work with such machinery?

The only difference between the two, is the material used, and the temperatures they are melted at.
It doesn't matter -- as most people commonly understand it, metal is cast and plastic is molded.

Yes, you may not be strictly lying if you say your plastic models are die cast, but you are certainly commiting false advertising by confusing your customers by using a terminology in a non-standard way.
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Old 04-29-2009, 11:56 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travertineeye View Post
... I collect aircraft and cars in diecast and they just don't feel the same when compared to the plastic models. I used to build my own Ravel and such aircraft and when I started collecting diecast they just couldn't compare ...
Being a plastic modeller, I am all for plastic models myself but I understand what you are saying about them not feeling as "substantial".

I have been building plastic models for over 40 years and I have always glued lead weight into the fuselage at about the centre-of-gravity position to give them more weight and "substance" so that, when handled, they feel "scale heavy".

Perhaps Andrew could use this same teqhnique. Mould in plastic for durability but fill with sufficient weight to make them appeal to the die-cast die-hards. Truth is, once painted nobody could tell the difference!! How many guessed the Connie was fudged? (Our "all metal" models are way overscale in weight anyway).

By positioning the weight slightly forward of the C-of-G position in airframes like the Strat or Connie you could overcome balance issues at the same time.

My 2c worth ...

Gavin
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:37 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Default Re: Something interesting ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkAirA320 View Post
It doesn't matter -- as most people commonly understand it, metal is cast and plastic is molded.

Yes, you may not be strictly lying if you say your plastic models are die cast, but you are certainly commiting false advertising by confusing your customers by using a terminology in a non-standard way.

Agreed 100%.

While technically rather similar, "die casting" is one thing - according to literature all-metal - and (plastic) injection moulding an other.

Not in my wildest dreams would I call an injection moulded plastic part "die casted" and I have spend some time with working on such and simmilar machines.
Much like telling a balloonist that he's "flying".

After all, does it really matter which materials our models are made of? No.

Last edited by Phantom; 04-29-2009 at 12:40 PM.
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