Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400 - DA.C
 

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Old 06-06-2021, 08:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Thanks to Doug for prompting me on this one. I had written the majority of this review in March but it got waylaid as more pressing publishing appeared.

The 747-400 is, I'd have thought, a major part of most collections of any size so it is perhaps surprising how little attention it has received in the past decade in 400 scale. The new JC Wings mould is the first since 2007 and obviously my distaste for the Phoenix mould is well known. With the release of the new JC mould it seemed a good time to take a closer look at the moulds. The new JC does well, however older moulds can still compete:

https://www.yesterdaysairlines.com/boeing-747-4001.html

Note although not appearing in shot below, as I don't own it, the Phoenix 744 is included in the review thanks to help from Denny Payne.

Boeing 747-400 Moulds Compared by Richard Stretton, on Flickr
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Excellent review!
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Old 06-07-2021, 05:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Great mould review again. The only thing that I did not like was the clear bias against Phoenix. Yes their mould is bad for 2021 standards, but the overall score should have been higher.
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Old 06-07-2021, 06:56 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Phoenix 747-4 mould isn't the worst in 400. Just look at their A300, or Dragon 77-200 or Aeroclassics SE210
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Old 06-07-2021, 09:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I’m just glad the old Dragon Wings and Gemini moulds hold up since JC Wings won’t likely release a whole lot in my collecting categories and the Phoenix is pretty lacking.
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Old 06-07-2021, 09:52 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark22 View Post
Great mould review again. The only thing that I did not like was the clear bias against Phoenix. Yes their mould is bad for 2021 standards, but the overall score should have been higher.
Their 747 mould is just bad in general.
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

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Their 747 mould is just bad in general.
Everyone knows that, the thing is that Phoenix doesn't seem to be judged equally in the mould comparison
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Old 06-07-2021, 11:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

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Everyone knows that, the thing is that Phoenix doesn't seem to be judged equally in the mould comparison
So your suggesting ugliness brings its own rewards ?
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Old 06-07-2021, 12:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

Fine overall review. Gives a comparison which helps judge a particular 747-400 model for purchase. The scoring is relative, but still provides a general rating of the different available moulds - helpful. Doug
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Everyone knows that, the thing is that Phoenix doesn't seem to be judged equally in the mould comparison
Where do you think it was judged harshly? What score should have been higher? Their mould is just plain bad regardless of the year. I was quite lenient in the original version it scored lower!

The scoring works as basically a point is knocked off for every major issue, two if the problem is massive and only half if minor. I'm not sure where it would pickup extra points.
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

The 747-400 was the mould that got me collecting in the first place. The lack of releases from other manus besides PHX, which btw had wonderful subjects but on a mould I did not care to hit the Buy button for got me bored a bit with the collecting side of it. I understand Mark22's dilema. He is trying to acquire all the KLM regs that flew/fly. Phoenix seems to be the only ones releasing and fullfilling his need for said airline. Not horrible imo cause I did have some of the older releases, but it is high time they update or retool that nose! Great review once more Rich!
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

While I agree with your excellent review in general there is one issue IMHO: Richard, you focus very much on the nose side profile while I think other perspectives should be considered, too.

I'm a real 747 fan and still believe that all in all the nose of the Dragon Wings looks best. Big Bird's 747-100/200 had a fantastic nose while the 747-400 wasn't that good. I believe AV400 fixed that at some point. The Canadian 747-400 might have been updated too because it looks better than the original BB 747-400s I have. Perhaps we need to differentiate here.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:01 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RStretton View Post
Where do you think it was judged harshly? What score should have been higher? Their mould is just plain bad regardless of the year. I was quite lenient in the original version it scored lower!

The scoring works as basically a point is knocked off for every major issue, two if the problem is massive and only half if minor. I'm not sure where it would pickup extra points.
The nosegear for example. You only pointed out good things about it; yet it has the same rating as other brands which are clearly not as good.
Then look at the APU of JCwings, you call it "a nice attempt" but yet it gets 5/5 rating, where is the logic behind that?

Original BB / AC engines are very poor, yet it scores higher than Phoenix. I don't have a BB mk3 747-400, so I don't know if the engines are the same as the original BB, but if they aren't, then you should have sticked with either Bigbird mk1 or Bigbird mk3, not a mix of both.

And something else is the rating for printing and details. How are Dragon and Phoenix both 3/5? Phoenix has much better printing and a lot more details. Newer models also have good detailing on the engines. The only real issue with Phoenix is the lack of maingear doors. You can't use standards from 20 years ago and today in one comparison.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Detailed Mould Comparison: Boeing 747-400

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Great mould review again. The only thing that I did not like was the clear bias against Phoenix. Yes their mould is bad for 2021 standards, but the overall score should have been higher.
I mean when the wings literally bend down it’s not like it’d get a good score
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:12 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I mean when the wings literally bend down it’s not like it’d get a good score
I never said that the mould is good. I only said that the scores sometimes don't make sense.

The wings are supposed to curve and the wings of the Phoenix 744 don't bend downwards, so your point doesn't make sense, neither does Richard's comment about the wing not bending at all (because they clearly do).
Dragon's wingtip is higher than the fuselage, when it should be quite a bit below it. Also engine #1 is too high relatively to engine #2. Phoenix has that much better. The wingtips on Phoenix 747's are indeed too low, but it doesn't make sense to give them only 2 points while Dragon gets 5.

The height of engine #1/4 also differs per Phoenix model. The KLM PH-BFT from 2015 and PH-BFE from 2021 both have a little bit more space between the engine and the ground.

And finally, how on Earth are Bigbird's engines better rated than Phoenix? I have compared the Aeroclassics KLM B744 PH-BFU with the Phoenix KLM B744 PH-BFE (they both have GE CF6-80C2B1F by the way).
-The engines themselves are much better on Phoenix
-The engine/pylon joint is better on Phoenix
-The engines of Bigbird are pointing more downward than Phoenix's point upward
-The pylons of all engines are much better on Phoenix

I don't have a JC, Dragon or Gemini 747 with the same engines, so I can't compare those.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Ok let me go through your points here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark22 View Post
The nosegear for example. You only pointed out good things about it; yet it has the same rating as other brands which are clearly not as good.
Then look at the APU of JCwings, you call it "a nice attempt" but yet it gets 5/5 rating, where is the logic behind that?
The nosegear got 4 out of 5. I said nice things about it but I don't think it is better than the BigBird (nosegear door size for example), which itself isn't perfect.

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Original BB / AC engines are very poor, yet it scores higher than Phoenix. I don't have a BB mk3 747-400, so I don't know if the engines are the same as the original BB, but if they aren't, then you should have sticked with either Bigbird mk1 or Bigbird mk3, not a mix of both.
The problem with the Phoenix is the engine pylons are such a POS that it destroys whatever the engines are doing, plus the engine cores are solid. It may have different faults but it has as many as the BigBird does and they are worse.

Quote:
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And something else is the rating for printing and details. How are Dragon and Phoenix both 3/5? Phoenix has much better printing and a lot more details. Newer models also have good detailing on the engines. The only real issue with Phoenix is the lack of maingear doors. You can't use standards from 20 years ago and today in one comparison.
Phoenix add crappy glossy paint, don't print a load of details (not just maingear doors). Again the Dragon has faults but in my mind they are different to the Phoenix.

Regardless in all these scenarios I wouldn't score the Phoenix higher if I modified it I'd score the others lower so the Phoenix is still a stinking piece of crap and just because PHX waste a lot of zinc making KLM models you want to buy doesn't change that.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark22 View Post
I never said that the mould is good. I only said that the scores sometimes don't make sense.

The wings are supposed to curve and the wings of the Phoenix 744 don't bend downwards, so your point doesn't make sense, neither does Richard's comment about the wing not bending at all (because they clearly do).
Dragon's wingtip is higher than the fuselage, when it should be quite a bit below it. Also engine #1 is too high relatively to engine #2. Phoenix has that much better. The wingtips on Phoenix 747's are indeed too low, but it doesn't make sense to give them only 2 points while Dragon gets 5.
I think it is clear as day that the wing angle on the Phoenix is the worst of all of them. I do own, to my shame a Phoenix 744F and the wing angle is embarrassing. The photos make it hard to show the angles compared to teh real thing due to the size difference scaling but it is obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark22 View Post
The height of engine #1/4 also differs per Phoenix model. The KLM PH-BFT from 2015 and PH-BFE from 2021 both have a little bit more space between the engine and the ground.

And finally, how on Earth are Bigbird's engines better rated than Phoenix? I have compared the Aeroclassics KLM B744 PH-BFU with the Phoenix KLM B744 PH-BFE (they both have GE CF6-80C2B1F by the way).
-The engines themselves are much better on Phoenix
-The engine/pylon joint is better on Phoenix
-The engines of Bigbird are pointing more downward than Phoenix's point upward
-The pylons of all engines are much better on Phoenix

I don't have a JC, Dragon or Gemini 747 with the same engines, so I can't compare those.
The engine pylon/joint is marginally better on the PHX but still rubbish and much inferior to the DW and JC.

The pylons are appalling - look at the photos. They are too long and the engines are held at a bizarre angle. They are one of the major factors that make the Phoenix 744 so awful.

In the end you can argue with a point here or there but even if you modified the scoring to make it more the way you'd like the Phoenix would still come out bottom by a significant margin. There is little arguing that it is one of the worst moulds ever made in 400 scale regardless of whether you like my exact scoring or not.

What would be your score for the Phoenix mould?
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:16 PM   #18 (permalink)
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While I agree with your excellent review in general there is one issue IMHO: Richard, you focus very much on the nose side profile while I think other perspectives should be considered, too.

I'm a real 747 fan and still believe that all in all the nose of the Dragon Wings looks best. Big Bird's 747-100/200 had a fantastic nose while the 747-400 wasn't that good. I believe AV400 fixed that at some point. The Canadian 747-400 might have been updated too because it looks better than the original BB 747-400s I have. Perhaps we need to differentiate here.
I'm not aware there is a BB Mk3 747-400 or that the mould was altered by AV400. If they had of modified it you'd have thought they'd have removed the wingseam as they did on the 747-100/200 mould. AFAIK there is just the 1 big Bird 744.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The engine pylon/joint is marginally better on the PHX but still rubbish and much inferior to the DW and JC.

The pylons are appalling - look at the photos. They are too long and the engines are held at a bizarre angle. They are one of the major factors that make the Phoenix 744 so awful.
If you take a look of pictures of the real aircraft, you can see that the pylons look a lot more similar to the Phoenix ones that Bigbird. I can send pictures tomorrow to show what I am talking about.

"Held at a bizarre angle" is highly exaggerated. As I mentioned, original Bigbird engines point more downwards than Phoenix's point upwards, unless the Bigbird mk3 has updated engines, which would make the comparison less convincing.

If you talk about the glossy finish (which is indeed not how it's supposed to be), then you would need to make a seperate comparison about paint and finishes as a whole. Now it seems like Phoenix is the only one who does that, when that's not the case.

I will never say that the Phoenix 747 is better than Dragon, Gemini, JC or Bigbird. It has some very big flaws. But still Phoenix should have had more points as it has some clear advantages.
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Old 06-08-2021, 05:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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If you take a look of pictures of the real aircraft, you can see that the pylons look a lot more similar to the Phoenix ones that Bigbird. I can send pictures tomorrow to show what I am talking about.

"Held at a bizarre angle" is highly exaggerated. As I mentioned, original Bigbird engines point more downwards than Phoenix's point upwards, unless the Bigbird mk3 has updated engines, which would make the comparison less convincing.

If you talk about the glossy finish (which is indeed not how it's supposed to be), then you would need to make a seperate comparison about paint and finishes as a whole. Now it seems like Phoenix is the only one who does that, when that's not the case.

I will never say that the Phoenix 747 is better than Dragon, Gemini, JC or Bigbird. It has some very big flaws. But still Phoenix should have had more points as it has some clear advantages.
I doubt we're ever going to agree on this however I can't see any advantages to the Phoenix which would make me acquire one or suggest to someone they should - and there aren't many moulds I can say that about.

Incidentally look at the latest release - the Dragonair 744BCF taken from a Waffle photo. I have tried to show my all over issues with the PHX wings:

PHX744wing by Richard Stretton, on Flickr

The engines are all over the place positionally - they look too low on the inside engine (although given how bad the wing fairing regionis on the PHX it is hard to say what they are level with on the real thing) and angled oddly upwards. There isn't enough ground clearance despite the height of the nosegear.

The rest of the wing dips after the last engine when it should continue gracefully upwards. The biggest issue with the Phoenix is that overall the faults compound each other and so add up to ruin the overall model where as the faults on the BigBird and others don't tend to impact each other in the same way. For example the engine pylons may not be good but they hold the engines at the right height and angle so unless you're looking close you don't notice.

P.S: I haven't seen anyone do glossy paint like PHX does
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