Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix - DA.C
 

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Old 05-16-2017, 08:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

I was doing a routine sweep of my collection today and noticed this. Not 100% sure it's zinc rot. Perhaps a forum elder could give me their thoughts. The bubbling paint and wing flex are quite ominous.

Model has always been stored inside, in it's cradle, between 50 and 76 degrees.

Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix-img_3979.jpg

Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix-img_3980.jpg

Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix-img_3981.jpg
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

Looks like the ol Zinky rots to me!
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Old 05-16-2017, 09:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

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Originally Posted by DC8-dude View Post
Looks like the ol Zinky rots to me!
Yeah, that was my first impression at least. My pics aren't great here but the bubbling on the wings is pretty ugly. Probably just a matter of time now before the cracking and crumbling begins.

Here is another picture comparing this model: TAP A319 from 2007 (PH4TAP237) to another Phoenix model Tiger Airways A319 (PH4TIG534)..presumably the same mould.

Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix-img_3982.jpg

A real shame. I still remember the excitement of finding this model and it showing up in the mail. It was hard to come by.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

If it flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be zinc rot... Welcome to our world of diecast airliner collecting, and it seems you were bit by zinc rot early in the hobby. Add this one to the list... Sometimes zinc rot stabilizes and slows down, but usually the process continues and consumes your model. I've got some Magic models that obviously have symptoms, but seem to be stable and worth keeping. Zinc rot is a bummer, and everyone gets bit at some point. Keep 'em flying, Doug
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

G'day,

I can tell ALL now, it's not Zinc Rot as these planes wern't made with zinc/zamac but with Aluminium. Phoenix models use a high pressure aluminium diecasting moulds for their castings. The bubbling is more likely due to improper cleaning of the wing surface, allowing contaminats to settle before painting. The bending is likely from these same contaminats causing "Powdery Rot".

It's a recently new condition. Here is a link to a similar situation already discussed on DAC about Powdery Rot affecting 1:200 models made of Aluminium. It's very interesting reading - though worrying..

http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...00-models.html

See post 106 for a detailed explaination of what is Powdery Rot.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

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Originally Posted by doug seeley View Post
If it flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be zinc rot... Welcome to our world of diecast airliner collecting, and it seems you were bit by zinc rot early in the hobby. Add this one to the list... Sometimes zinc rot stabilizes and slows down, but usually the process continues and consumes your model. I've got some Magic models that obviously have symptoms, but seem to be stable and worth keeping. Zinc rot is a bummer, and everyone gets bit at some point. Keep 'em flying, Doug
Thank you for taking a look and welcoming me to the forum. I used to be on here quite a but under a different name. I've drifted back to the hobby in recent weeks. We'll see where it goes...hopefully not to the discovery of more "rotting" models.

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G'day,

I can tell ALL now, it's not Zinc Rot as these planes wern't made with zinc/zamac but with Aluminium. Phoenix models use a high pressure aluminium diecasting moulds for their castings. The bubbling is more likely due to improper cleaning of the wing surface, allowing contaminats to settle before painting. The bending is likely from these same contaminats causing "Powdery Rot".

It's a recently new condition. Here is a link to a similar situation already discussed on DAC about Powdery Rot affecting 1:200 models made of Aluminium. It's very interesting reading - though worrying..

http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...00-models.html

See post 106 for a detailed explaination of what is Powdery Rot.
Thank you for taking a look and giving your thoughts. I was a little skeptical that it was zinc rot mainly because the paint is bubbling not cracking as I've seen on models before.

Do you think that this is an isolated incident specifically to my model or is there a possibility that it is affecting more in the run?


Thanks again for the feedback fellow members!
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

So now we got powdery rot, zinc rot, polished metal finishes that tarnish, quality control lapses, and climbing prices - where we going with this thing? Over, Doug
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

I Worte up a response earlier but apparently it didn't post. Just wanted to say thank you for the input and resources suggested over this case.

I'd like to ask, is powder rot likely to be affecting all models of a particular run or rather, just a model here and there from a release? Thanks for anything you call may be able to add.
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Old 05-20-2017, 03:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

G'day,

I think it's too early to say how powdery rot will affect aluminium models... It could be just one model affected because it wasn't properly cleaned afer coming out of the mould and became contaminated or it could be a whole batch due to the aluminium being contaminated in the first instance. From a personal point of view, I've seen several models contaminated due to improper cleaning of the fresh casting and the surface paint then flaking off (I have a Gemini Qantas A380 so affected) tho I bought a second model of the same plane and that's fine...

Lou
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

Originally written by mach25 in the thread referenced above in post #5


I thought I would "perhaps" shed some light in the explanation of the potential issues of metal degradation or "rot" as commonly called.

I am the person in Japan that asked my brother who is a Chemical Engineer at Dupont Chemicals in the United States, regarding the tarnishing in the 1/200 polished metal models a few months back and posted a thread on this issue. Since I was in town visiting him on a flight layover from Japan, I showed him this hotly contested thread during dinner and asked him for his input. I'm just a pilot but he's an expert on this issue.

Here's his very basic input and thoughts, based on not having the Gemini model for testing at the laboratory.

As the moderator make.me.laugh very correctly stated, aluminum and all metal for that matter, if not treated correctly, will turn back to it's original ore state at one time or another. The term "rot" commonly used, such as Zinc Rot etc., but in actuality, the metal is not rotting but due to peripheral circumstances (air, water, chemicals (organic and inorganic), heat, cold etc.) is reverting back to it's very basic original ore state. Whether is cast silver aluminum or aluminum grey-white power, it's still basically aluminum as an element. It's the Mass Conservation Theory of "Matter can neither be created or destroyed". Although it may change form, it cannot be destroyed. But a simple name rather than degradation and other scientific mumble-jumble name is simply "rot".

Degradation process can begin immediately and take days, weeks, months or years before notice. It really depends on the state of the original metal, how it was processed and the environmental factors, past and current.

For the most part, Chinese metal ore mining manufacturers and their metal distributers (where the company buys the metal from to cast their parts) are extremely "unregulated" and do not adhere to the ISO9000 series (International Standards Organization) of Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management. Hence metal purity and quality as a general rule can become anyone's best guess. It's basically cost versus quality, as ISO adherence is very expensive and requires time and support from the company and employees.

For example, one of the concerns at Boeing who is building their aircraft factory in China, is where they and their sub-contractors are to source the metal vendors for their aircraft. The Chinese government is pressuring Boeing to source their metal vendors from China, yet, many of these vendors are not ISO9000 compliant and even if they are ISO compliant, are subject to shortcuts, "look the other way", "monetary compensation - bribes" for cost control, as per their 2013/2014 audit. Dupont Chemicals works closely with Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers and an entire division at Dupont Chemicals, is dedicated to working with them and during the audit, found the Chinese metal processing and quality assurance appalling.

In a very lowest common denominator, it's like comparing Reynolds Aluminum Foil versus a XYZ Discount Store unknown manufacturer brand of aluminum foil. The Reynolds may be 2 - 3 times more expensive, but you know what you're getting (for the most part). The discount store aluminum foil may break apart, not sustain heat and even be recalled by the Food Safety Department for having mercury inside of the foil sheets (yes...... this actually has happened in Asia).

When my brother did the destructive testing on the Inflight and Aviation 200 models etc., the aluminum body and wings contained multiple metals (some were trace elements) such as Iron, Tin, Nickel, Copper etc along with other human organic contaminants. The aluminum was basically not high-grade (pure would be impractical). Though he did not test for the exact type of aluminum alloy (there are multiple grades), the aluminum used was highly machinable but very low grade, perhaps due to this, is susceptible to corrosion and oxidation (from both external and internal reaction sources). Again, it's about cost, ease and time.

Imagine if you will, an aluminum soda can left out in the elements over time, it'll probably get brittle, as the aluminum is breaking down. Now compare that to the aluminum used on space crafts, the degradation process is much slower due to the grade of aluminum and how the aluminum was chemically treated. But still, the aluminum used on the space craft is degrading, perhaps a million times slower than the aluminum soda can.

Again, even the best surface treated aluminum can corrode, should the base aluminum contain contaminants or other metals within it. If not about "if" but how fast or how slow.

So generally speaking, where does the other contaminants and metal get into the aluminum casting? My brother explained that the aluminum ingots may already have other metals and contaminants inside of it. How it was mined from ore and the quality control measures required to keep it in a highest quality state, from the ore mine to the smelting pot to cast the ingots, is anyone's guess.

Should the manufacturer suspect or have suspicion that the ingots be already contaminants, there is a process to remove it, but again, it's expensive and time consuming.

At the manufacturer's site, when casting the parts, contaminants within the smelting pot if not completely cleaned out can also be the culprit. For many companies, they may smelter aluminum one day, iron the following day and copper the next day etc. To clean out the smelter pots is time consuming, expensive and difficult, it's not as simple as heat up the pot, pour out the remainder metal and wipe clean. To treat the pot correctly, it requires chemical treatment and cleaning the pot "without" damaging the pot, which may bring the actual pot material into the next mix. Hence, ISO9000 series manufacturers will never use the same smelter pot for different types of metals.

So why and what happens during the metal degradation process? Anything really can cause degradation of the metal (natural or induced), from air, chemicals and other contaminants, organic and inorganic. As my brother and perhaps had the best analogy..... "Metal degradation is like bread yeast". In order to make the entire bread batch rise, it only takes a tiny amount of yeast. The same holds true for metal degradation. It only takes a small amount of contaminants to spread like wild fire. Consider the metal contaminants like yeast, as it begins to degrade, it multiplies exponentially. In the metal model, very contaminant is finding a nook and cranny to spread and degrade. Now add oxygen or other chemical elements and you've just accelerated to process.

Even having a tiny pin-prick of a hole in the paint or area where it is not treated correctly, or just happens to be a trace element of a contaminant metal or another contaminant in the aluminum will lead to degradation process. It really only takes one oxygen molecule or another environmental factor to start the entire degradation process. In the case of the Delta 757, the process could have started from where the bare metal pylon attaches to the wing.... just as an example.

Why do you see cracking, warping and bubbling? Without again going into his scientific mumble-jumble, anytime something is changing from one form to another requires "energy". In these model, you may not be able to feel it, see it or smell it, but energy is being produced until the process is over (powered state in this particular case). When you're boiling water and see the bubbles forming, it's energy being produced and the element is changing form from a liquid to a gas. Essentially as the model parts degrades to it's basic ore state (powder), the same process is happening with released energy. If it's under dried paint (and flexible to a point), this energy has no where to go except forming bubbles (cracking the paint if enough energy is produced and the paint was not flexible) or if enough energy is produced, can actually warp out the part without breaking it (though a light tap will fracture the part as only the surface tension is holding the part together and the inside is completely porous and essentially "cooked off").

Can you mitigate the model from the degradation process? Unfortunately no. Once the process has begun, you can't stop it unless you dig out and clean out the entire area and chemically treat it. It's like having a dental teeth decay, the dentist needs to clean out the entire cavity "and" the surrounding areas, chemically treat it from spreading to other area. Not practical for these models.

Can the manufacturers mitigate this process? Boeing is having a difficult time with this in China. I hardly suspect that toy manufacturers will go through the process to ensure that they and the metal distributors are going to be ISO9000 compliant to ensure Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management.

Sorry to ramble on and apologies in advance for the typo and grammar errors, it's long but, hope this information shed some light to the cause of "rot".
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

It is also possible the the model once removed from the mould is either not being properly cleaned of white oil which can lead to problems of paint adhesion as well as an entry point for oxidisation corrosion to begin to occur. This would also account for the randomness that seems to be happening here.

Otherwise it could be the Chemical composite of the Release agent oil on this batch (a.k.a. white oil) which has caused the problem described above..?

It may also have been caused by the holding pot which is kept separate from the die casting machine and which the molten metal is ladled from the pot for each casting. If not at the required temp. this also could allow contamination of the pour. Hence why only a few models may be so affected.

Pure aluminium does suffer from "Bubbles" in casts when either injection temperatures are too high or there is a non-uniform cooling rate. Prone to cracking or shrinking at high temperatures while casting, it is therefore often alloyed with copper.

There are many reasons why this may have happened, tho I suspect that any collector upon receiving a model would open it and inspect. I always do with any model I purchase. It certainly seems that "Powdery Rot" is indeed the culprit in this instance. It's possible that it has taken some years to get to this point and previously was unknown.

Whatever the reason, it's also clear that Phoenix Models along with other possible manufacturers have had no inclination till now of this threat to their models made from aluminium. The question of how much of a Boeing is made by Boeing comes to mind. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I doubt this will be the last word on the matter though...
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

Powdery Rot ..... call it what you want, it's simply Corrosion. The same white powder will show on any Aluminum object that corrodes, just as rust forms on steel . Just as real aircraft are prone to this, so are many late model cars and trucks with aluminum body panels. Some Ford models here in the US have been notorious for poor prep of the aluminum hoods (or Bonnets as they would call them across the pond ). My sons '05 Ford Mustang had this issue, white powder "Corrosion" perforating the hood in many spots. OTOH.... i wasn't aware Phoenix made models of Aluminum as i don't own any, they must be pretty light.

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Old 05-20-2017, 05:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

These days,

Phoenix Models, JC Wings, Gemini Jets are all making aluminium casted models. It's why several of the newer JC and Gemini models have plastic rear tail fins, cause if they were made of metal they would tip backwards.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

A case then for lower, NOT higher prices to take the possibility of deterioration into account, as guarantees appear not only not applicable, but impractical as well ...
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Old 05-21-2017, 03:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Potential Zinc Rot (Powdery Rot) watch on TAP A319 by Phoenix

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A case then for lower, NOT higher prices to take the possibility of deterioration into account, as guarantees appear not only not applicable, but impractical as well ...
That would be nice but you know the only thing that will bring down prices is if there was some sort of mass exodus from the hobby. They still must sell like hotcakes globally or else we wouldn't see the prices we do. Supply/Demand economics.
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