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Old 10-10-2021, 08:17 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Dear All


This model was listed on eBay, I was exchanging offers with the seller but the listing disappeared. When I asked the seller what happened, he informed me that eBay removed it after a copyright infringement filed by Braniff International.



Does anybody know what is the story of this model?



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JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-_5330992.jpg   JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-_5330991.jpg   JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-_5330993.jpg  
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hmm, there is a group, individual, who has taken the Braniff International and associated trademarks and are/were seemingly attempting to protect the history and value of the various brands. I was concerned a bit it may go thus direction and am hoping this is a one off.

They did get the Braniff buildings in use by a local FBO to hang a large Cowboys 727 model and have done some other Braniff preservation efforts, however they also apparently are trying to sell licenses for hotel naming contracts, artistic works,, etc.....

I can't imagine an existing model of a historic aircraft registration would be anything close to a copyright infringement. It could be a mistake, however it wouldn't be the first time someone, or a group, has co-opted others creative history in an attempt to profit. While hiding behind ownership of trademarked brands. I was hoping for the best.....
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Old 10-11-2021, 06:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

I don’t know which's person, or group, or company currently owns the rights associated with the trademark Braniff international Airlines. So this might actually be a matter of copyright infringement (or, at least, a claim of such) or just a wrong information by the seller (maybe he got an offer he couldn’t resist).

Copyright matters have definitely gone wild during the past 10 or 15 years in association with airplane scale models but concerning Braniff it appears to be a little unlikely.
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Old 10-11-2021, 07:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Your sellers story is totally bogus. There are dozens of other Braniff models currently on ebay and I did not even check non Braniff model merchandise. Someone must have made a better offer and he is too emarassed to admit selling it from under you or perhaps you possibly being in Dubai didnt want the hassle of a potential Intl shipping order.
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Old 10-11-2021, 12:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Originally Posted by crownvic View Post
Your sellers story is totally bogus. There are dozens of other Braniff models currently on ebay and I did not even check non Braniff model merchandise. Someone must have made a better offer and he is too emarassed to admit selling it from under you or perhaps you possibly being in Dubai didnt want the hassle of a potential Intl shipping order.

No it is not the case, he shared with me the eBay email showing the complaint on the listing and eBay decision to remove it.
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Old 10-11-2021, 12:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Originally Posted by Cazadores View Post
Hmm, there is a group, individual, who has taken the Braniff International and associated trademarks and are/were seemingly attempting to protect the history and value of the various brands. I was concerned a bit it may go thus direction and am hoping this is a one off.

They did get the Braniff buildings in use by a local FBO to hang a large Cowboys 727 model and have done some other Braniff preservation efforts, however they also apparently are trying to sell licenses for hotel naming contracts, artistic works,, etc.....

I can't imagine an existing model of a historic aircraft registration would be anything close to a copyright infringement. It could be a mistake, however it wouldn't be the first time someone, or a group, has co-opted others creative history in an attempt to profit. While hiding behind ownership of trademarked brands. I was hoping for the best.....

The law gives 3 years for the original owner or someone who bought the right to prove they intend to continue using the trademark. If no proof is presented of such intent, the trademark become inactive and anybody can use it without the need to obtain permission


Braniff according to references on the subject, is the exception among all airlines seized to exists (either by bankruptcy or by acquisitions)
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Old 10-11-2021, 01:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Originally Posted by Madridista View Post
I don’t know which's person, or group, or company currently owns the rights associated with the trademark Braniff international Airlines. So this might actually be a matter of copyright infringement (or, at least, a claim of such) or just a wrong information by the seller (maybe he got an offer he couldn’t resist).

Copyright matters have definitely gone wild during the past 10 or 15 years in association with airplane scale models but concerning Braniff it appears to be a little unlikely.

I confirmed it, there is a company in Oklahoma owns the copyrights / IP on the Braniff International brand (and all derivatives). They have active records with the US Copyright Office as well as with the World Intellectual Property Organization.



The seller shared with me the email from eBay and the decision to remove the listing.



While there are many active (or sold) listings for Braniff International models from IF and AeroClassics, seems there is a problem with this specific model.
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Old 10-12-2021, 05:04 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Tell me my pension is safe..!!!




(how to get the font wrong so many times!!)
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Old 10-12-2021, 06:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Tell me my pension is safe..!!!




(how to get the font wrong so many times!!)
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

.. and in a smaller font.... these lawyers are going to have their work cut out....

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Old 10-12-2021, 11:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDiecast View Post
No it is not the case, he shared with me the eBay email showing the complaint on the listing and eBay decision to remove it.
I stand behind what I say.... several other JC Wings Braniff models have sold recently and there is a similar JC BAC-111 listed now. I'm open for proof but the topic poster is receiving fake news from the seller or possibly the seller has been duped too.
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Old 10-12-2021, 07:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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I stand behind what I say.... several other JC Wings Braniff models have sold recently and there is a similar JC BAC-111 listed now. I'm open for proof but the topic poster is receiving fake news from the seller or possibly the seller has been duped too.

Not at all, I shared the case only after ensuring that there is an authentic proof that I was able to verify.



It will be great if you can share links to active listing of similar models (i.e JC Wings / Braniff / BAC-111 on eBay).



For the proof you asked for, attached is a screenshot of email received from eBay shared by seller. Seller name is masked by me upon his request, as he right now is exchanging emails with the email address provided by eBay.



He promised to share with me the emails exchange when he reach to the bottom line on this issue. I will share with members.
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

I just confirmed with a few manufacturers that you are correct. My apologies and I stand corrected. A private individual recently bought the rights to the Braniff name and he is holding certain model companies hostage demanding big royalties.. He is ruining it for the collectors..So far no one is budging..

It appears Gemini and Inflight appear to be ok for now..
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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I just confirmed with a few manufacturers that you are correct. My apologies and I stand corrected. A private individual recently bought the rights to the Braniff name and he is holding certain model companies hostage demanding big royalties.. He is ruining it for the collectors..So far no one is budging..

It appears Gemini and Inflight appear to be ok for now..

It is not a recent acquisition, it is have been around since 1990s according to US Copyright Office. The difference is, this company started some time in 2018 / 2019 chasing model companies for royalties.


My theory is the Braniff brand is losing it is earning power as the 4 generations who lived during the airline active years perished/are perishing. With the strong demand in primary and secondary market for Braniff models, they thought they can take model companies and model collectors hostage for their big licenses demand.



So it maybe a good idea to release the models, with the colors (they can't claim copyright on colors) and with the tail number (good luck in registering each tail number the airline ever had) and leave the logo / names for the aftermarket decal market. The model name can be "N1551 of you know who airline" (like how they referred to the Jordanian monarch in the Pandora papers )
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crownvic View Post
I just confirmed with a few manufacturers that you are correct. My apologies and I stand corrected. A private individual recently bought the rights to the Braniff name and he is holding certain model companies hostage demanding big royalties.. He is ruining it for the collectors..So far no one is budging..

It appears Gemini and Inflight appear to be ok for now..

It is not a recent acquisition, it is have been around since 1990s according to US Copyright Office. The difference is, this company started some time in 2018 / 2019 chasing model companies for royalties.


My theory is the Braniff brand is losing it is earning power as the 4 generations who lived during the airline active years perished/are perishing. With the strong demand in primary and secondary market for Braniff models, they thought they can take model companies and model collectors hostage for their big licenses demand.



So it maybe a good idea to release the models, with the colors (they can't claim copyright on colors) and with the tail number (good luck in registering each tail number the airline ever had) and leave the logo / names for the aftermarket decal market. The model name can be "N1551 of you know who airline" (like how they referred to the Jordanian monarch in the Pandora papers [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/images/smilies/mrgreen.gif[/IMG])

What a shame, I had a brief conversation with the individual in question and came away with concerns, now they seem to have been warranted. Harassing enthusiasts is no way to preserve and advance a historic brand. People interested in collecting trinkets honoring past greats should be encouraged, and brought into "the fold" so tot speak. I hope this is just the work of an overzealous law firm intern, however if not, it is truly a poor way to preserve and honor the Braniff tradition.
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Old 10-13-2021, 06:18 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Latest, screenshots of email exchange between the eBay Seller and a Braniff employee/representative



(Email of individuals and names were masked to avoid any privacy preach)



No further comment.



(Still getting the model from the seller, we agreed to add the value of the model to another model I am buying from him... good luck Mr. Licensor in blocking the sale).
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JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-picture1.jpg   JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-picture2.jpg   JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-picture3.jpg   JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International-picture4.jpg  
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:29 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Does one therefore describe any future sales of Braniff as 'mint' rather than 'new'... or simply used....?

Theres a shed load of Braniff stuff out there they can go for, if the only manufacturer to have 'approval' is Pacmin....
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Old 10-14-2021, 01:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Does one therefore describe any future sales of Braniff as 'mint' rather than 'new'... or simply used....?

Theres a shed load of Braniff stuff out there they can go for, if the only manufacturer to have 'approval' is Pacmin....



They gave no answer as you can see. Basically they may want to devalue these models "not licensed by them" offered in secondary markets.


This means the following:
1. If you buy these models to collect, get your hand on whatever you can on your target list because expect them to vanish from primary and secondary market
2. If you buy to resell them in future when value goes up, you need to keep in mind that the marketplaces like eBay and Amazon will remove these "Copyright Infringement" models. You need to identify part of your investment exist strategy where you will sell them without trouble.

3. Model makers will have less revenue opportunities as probably the licenses terms are expensive and won't make sense to release a model that can't sell because of high price.





As Russ shared on this thread, seems Gemini and Inflight are OK for now.
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Old 10-14-2021, 04:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

What am I missing? Why is Gemini and Inflight ok at the moment when the soul sucking azzhat who bought the rights to the name is saying they only licensed PACMIN?
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Old 10-18-2021, 08:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Well my Ebay listing for a 1:400 Panagra DC-6 (Aeroclassics) just got removed by [email protected] as well

Patent trolls are the scum of the earth, I swear....
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:02 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

They sell IF models on their own website.
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Originally Posted by dennypayne View Post
Well my Ebay listing for a 1:400 Panagra DC-6 (Aeroclassics) just got removed by [email protected] as well

Patent trolls are the scum of the earth, I swear....
So back in 1967, Braniff buys Panagra. 54 years later, you can’t sell a Panagra DC-6 model! The mind boggles!

These guys must have time on their hands.
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Old 10-18-2021, 10:36 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Thing is though everyone at sometime or other has come up with a Braniff number...



...........crazy old world...

(Skyline.... memories...)
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Old 10-18-2021, 11:40 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

I sent an email arguing that it was counterproductive to target individuals selling on Ebay, and requesting them to reinstate my listing, and was advised that as long as I relist the model as "Used" or "New Old Stock" (I have not seen NOS as an option on Ebay, but whatever...) that it will not trigger the listing removal. We shall see...

They also mentioned that they were bringing more models to market:

Quote:
..we have signed several longtime model makers and a new line of beautiful Braniff models ranging in size from 1/10 to 1/500 will be made available to the public. These modelers have asked that we crack down on all infringement so it will clear the market for their new models.
Take that as you will...
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Old 10-18-2021, 01:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Now, if the heroes at Gemini belong to those ‘contracted manufacturers’, it is pretty clear who asked for this copyright infringement campaign against all the other brands and their Braniff models (at least in 1/400 and 1/200 scales), isn’t it?!
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Old 10-18-2021, 02:15 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Now, if the heroes at Gemini belong to those ‘contracted manufacturers’, it is pretty clear who asked for this copyright infringement campaign against all the other brands and their Braniff models (at least in 1/400 and 1/200 scales), isn’t it?!
Hey expert.. I just spoke to Gemini...They had nothing to do with this as they could care less. Go back to your 40 years of collecting expertise which lately appears to be a joke unless its dolls..

BTW...Herpa, Inflight and Gemini all are licensed by Braniff too...
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Quote:
Now, if the heroes at Gemini belong to those ‘contracted manufacturers’, it is pretty clear who asked for this copyright infringement campaign against all the other brands and their Braniff models (at least in 1/400 and 1/200 scales), isn’t it?!"
Wow what a wanker you are.
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Old 10-18-2021, 06:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Hey expert.. I just spoke to Gemini...They had nothing to do with this as they could care less. [B]Go back to your 40 years of collecting expertise which lately appears to be a joke unless its dolls..

BTW...Herpa, Inflight and Gemini all are licensed by Braniff too...
That seems to be quite hurtful…

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Old 10-18-2021, 06:06 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dennypayne View Post
I sent an email arguing that it was counterproductive to target individuals selling on Ebay, and requesting them to reinstate my listing, and was advised that as long as I relist the model as "Used" or "New Old Stock" (I have not seen NOS as an option on Ebay, but whatever...) that it will not trigger the listing removal. We shall see...

They also mentioned that they were bringing more models to market:



Take that as you will...

Let us know if this goes through or not.
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Old 10-18-2021, 06:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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That seems to be quite hurtful…
Not as much as fake news....
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Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"
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Old 10-18-2021, 06:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Not as much as fake news....
I am open for justified criticism. Tell me about your reproach of “fake news” in conjunction with what I’ve written in this thread.
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Old 10-18-2021, 07:45 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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I am open for justified criticism. Tell me about your reproach of “fake news” in conjunction with what I’ve written in this thread.
I will, but first and much more important then quoting your fake news story about Gemini initiating the copyright infringement, I want to count how many sesame seeds are on the bun of my Burger King Impossible Whopper...A much more important use of my time.
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Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"
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Old 10-18-2021, 09:09 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

I'm enjoying this. My preference is for 1:200 retro airlines/liveries/airliners as I've been flying commercial airplanes since before these 111s were current. And I am very happy to get some great looking Bonanza, TWA, American, Ozark, Southern, Frontier, etc. airliner models. I've never bought any Braniff model and don't care.

That is because in my years of flying out of Denver Stapleton (and sometimes connecting in Dallas) that airline was by far the very worst option. The service was horrible; the flights were late and often cancelled; the ground personnel were not helpful. The airplanes were dirty. I hated that airline and was happy when it folded (and folded again in another iteration).

So good luck to the owner of the of those trademarks of the airline I most tried to avoid. I could care less. Just hope the group does not get to any airline name I liked back then.
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Old 10-19-2021, 06:24 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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So good luck to the owner of the of those trademarks of the airline I most tried to avoid. I could care less. Just hope the group does not get to any airline name I liked back then.


Apart from Braniff & now Panagra, they will only be chasing Mid-Continent Airlines, Bowen Air Lines & Long & Harman Airlines Inc models.

I think they won’t need to do much with the last 3!!!

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Old 10-19-2021, 08:56 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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I will, but first and much more important then quoting your fake news story about Gemini initiating the copyright infringement, I want to count how many sesame seeds are on the bun of my Burger King Impossible Whopper...A much more important use of my time.
Poor performance, man.

Meanwhile, I‘ll help you with the above quote: I said “If the heroes at Gemini”.

Homework for you: check your dictionary for the meaning of “if”.

Good luck with counting the sesame seeds…
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Old 10-19-2021, 09:48 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Poor performance, man.

Meanwhile, I‘ll help you with the above quote: I said “If the heroes at Gemini”.

Homework for you: check your dictionary for the meaning of “if”.

Good luck with counting the sesame seeds…
Poor performance?? I disagree...I finished the count and was quite impressed with the total. As I said, it was much more informative than reading your post which you were only stirring the pot to get you some much needed attention with fake news rumors.
Luckily our members are too smart to listen to you.
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Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

Last edited by crownvic; 10-19-2021 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 10-19-2021, 10:25 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Poor performance?? I disagree...I finished the count and was quite impressed with the total. As I said, it was much more informative than reading your post which you were only stirring the pot to get you some much needed attention with fake news rumors.
Luckily our members are too smart to listen to you.
Sidenore: it doesn’t get any better by repeating the same poor performance, mate.

However, I find it interesting to see that you’re so upset concerning my comment on Gemini and the copyright infringement issues although they are holding licenses of certain manufacturers and airlines, and are certainly interested in non-license holders to be warned and/or cautioned.

Still, I wrote “if Gemini…” - not “since Gemini…” or whatsoever. You’ve got no point. You should have enjoyed your burger instead of counting the countless.
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Old 10-19-2021, 01:32 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

Ebay should not be doing the bidding for people who claim to have exclusive rights to historical trademarks. They may have purchased these trademarks (and my guess is they paid very little) but there is no way to determine what rights they can defend in court. I doubt if anyone has used or defended the Braniff trademark in years and I am virtually certain their rights to exclusivity on Panagra would not be upheld.
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Old 10-19-2021, 01:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Ebay should not be doing the bidding for people who claim to have exclusive rights to historical trademarks. They may have purchased these trademarks (and my guess is they paid very little) but there is no way to determine what rights they can defend in court. I doubt if anyone has used or defended the Braniff trademark in years and I am virtually certain their rights to exclusivity on Panagra would not be upheld.

Marketplace facilitators only focus, like eBay, is to avoid any legal battles, even if they know that would not be upheld.



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Old 10-19-2021, 02:00 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Ebay should not be doing the bidding for people who claim to have exclusive rights to historical trademarks. They may have purchased these trademarks (and my guess is they paid very little) but there is no way to determine what rights they can defend in court. I doubt if anyone has used or defended the Braniff trademark in years and I am virtually certain their rights to exclusivity on Panagra would not be upheld.
I am sure there’s some lawyers here but my guess is that they can indeed defend the trademark and their rights at court very well. Whatever it might be - when the registered trademark is used, it is protected by copyright. They cannot claim the rights for something produced before but for everything produced and sold as newly-produced from the date the trademark was purchased.

ebay could probably be sued for offering a platform Where those copyright infringements are sold, and even for taking money for the service.
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Old 10-19-2021, 05:32 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

[QUOTE=Madridista;2862098]I am sure there’s some lawyers here ]

Yes, I am one of them
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Old 10-19-2021, 06:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

list them on here under trade/swap/sale!
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Old 10-19-2021, 09:38 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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Let us know if this goes through or not.
So far so good. I have the Panagra back up along with a Braniff 727, both listed as Used, and no issues yet.
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Old 10-20-2021, 12:58 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

[QUOTE=KennB;2862120]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madridista View Post
I am sure there’s some lawyers here ]
Yes, I am one of them
Acknowledged.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KennB View Post
Ebay should not be doing the bidding for people who claim to have exclusive rights to historical trademarks. They may have purchased these trademarks (and my guess is they paid very little) but there is no way to determine what rights they can defend in court. I doubt if anyone has used or defended the Braniff trademark in years and I am virtually certain their rights to exclusivity on Panagra would not be upheld.
Question is: why shouldn’t they be able to uphold trademarks rights when they have purchased them? This question is raised since I believe this is the one and only “problem” ebay has identified as its (potentially) own legal problem. They are choosing the easy way by deleting such offerings instead of dealing with details and further communication. Ask the guys at JFox or WB Models not to delete any models when they receive letter with copyright infringement claims by trademark owners and their legal offices… and guess what the license holders among model manufacturers will say…


Quote:
Originally Posted by dennypayne View Post
So far so good. I have the Panagra back up along with a Braniff 727, both listed as Used, and no issues yet.
Could turn out as the easy way to avoid deletion based on trademark claims.
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:24 AM   #45 (permalink)
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So far so good. I have the Panagra back up along with a Braniff 727, both listed as Used, and no issues yet.

What is your eBay store name?
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Old 10-22-2021, 09:00 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: JC Wings JC2188 BAC-111 Braniff International

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What is your eBay store name?
I don't have a store, just a regular account - dennden.
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