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Old 12-03-2017, 10:22 AM   #1
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sold this model on fleabay. took 5 fresh pictures of model so pics were 'up to date' and a link to my FLICKR pics I took when I got it. after taking pics I boxed model up before listing ended, so I could post it quick if it sold. just had a message from buyer 5 DAYS after he got it stating........

Hi Robert. Thanks for prompt dispatch. Unfortunately on quick inspection I've noticed this model has been subject to a repair. There is evidence that no 1 (left outboard) engine has been re-attached with glue, and is not in correct location. This should have been noted in the ad description. As I purchase these models for collection and later sale, I would not be able to sell it without stating the above, which could impact its appeal and sale price. I therefore would request that I return the item to you and you provide full refund. Many thanks.





I have asked for pictures as proof.

here is a link to listing.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272945040815?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

so your initial thoughts??? has he damaged it himself and botched repair?? or is he trying to scam me by trying to pass off one he already owns which is damaged? and why has it taken 5 days to notify me. so if you could take a look at picture to see if you can see anything 'wrong' as he states on my listing picture. thanks guys.

I will post 'his' pictures when I get them.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:31 AM   #2
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I’d tell him he can pay for shipping both ways. He’ll probably ding you unless you absorb everything but I wouldn’t if I were you.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:35 AM   #3
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Trust me, follow this advice. Don't argue, accept to give him full refund upon getting the model back (inspect thoroughly), he will have to pay return ship (according to eBay T&Cs) and then relist the model and move on with your life. Feel free to block him from buying / bidding on your listings.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

Ebay rules state the buyer is to pay return shipping. Shipping to buyer is already covered in the sale price, and there is no provisions that I know about for refunding the shipping cost to the buyer.

Unfortunately, eBay usually doesn't want to see pictures, and unless the model was marked, there is no way to really prove that the model was switched for a damaged one and then that one shipped back. Similarly, unless you have detailed photos of that specific area (and eBay usually doesn't consider photos when making a decision) you will end up refunding the sale price.

I seem to remember a post about Inflight manufacturing some BA 747 models with the engines placed creooked on the plyons at the factory. That could be the problem here. In any case, fight it if you want, but you will end up refunding anyway.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

Unfortunately, eBay removing the ability for the seller to leave negative feedback was a HUGE MISTAKE imo. Swapping the model is a possibility. I know Robert you have been here a long time,and bought and sold many models. If a repair was made,you would likely have a close up photo of the repair. Not "Maybe the guy won't notice". The photo does NOT show a repair. imo.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:33 PM   #6
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I would not accept any refund

you ve listed it as " used " so the ebay rules say you buy what you see on the pic .

Its hard to say did the guy glue it himself wrong or did he had a already
damaged model and trys now to swop his for free .

Ebay in this case do not protect the seller only take care for the buyer and let the seller alone in the rain a reason i stopped most sellings on ebay .

most ebay buyers are realy gental but some are a pain in the a....
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:19 PM   #7
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

I've had this happen with eBay buyers also, some people pull out a model and inspect it with a magnifying glass. Then expect you to take care of the issue. Difficult, because no model is perfect, and you are not the manufacturer of the model. But, eBay usually sides with the buyer, so I've had to suck it up, and accept the return. But, I do make the buyer pay for return shipping.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:27 PM   #8
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It's a tough one, do you want the hassle? If you like a hit of a fight then take him on and ask for pictures of the reglued engine. If he's obviously swapped it then again take him on with your photos. If you can't be arsed accept the return and take it on the chin.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:28 PM   #9
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well this is the FIRST time I have had this problem in over 7 years selling on ebay. got over 500+ positive sales. had one or two get damaged in transit. but a part credit has done the trick and buyer fixed it himself. so I will wait for his 'pictures' of problem.

then I will contact ebay. as I am a fairly regular seller with 'above standard' selling status, I have an ebay 'concierge'. if I have a problem, I let them know. then they actually 'ring me' free of charge to sort out the issue. I will then see what they advise.

probably end up refunding him, but not going to give up easily as there was 'nothing wrong' with the model when I sent it. and he waited 5 days to advise of problem.

bought this from ARD from new. only took it out for pics when I got it. didn't notice anything wrong. here are my Flickr pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robert...57663764976320
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

As others have mentioned, i would just have buyer return it and refund. it's not worth the aggravation as Ebay will side with the buyer and he'll most likely leave you neg FB if you contest.

I recall some member here in the past mentioned he used an invisible black light dye in a inconspicuous location so he could confirm the models he sold were his?

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Old 12-03-2017, 04:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjon5 View Post
well this is the FIRST time I have had this problem in over 7 years selling on ebay. got over 500+ positive sales. had one or two get damaged in transit. but a part credit has done the trick and buyer fixed it himself. so I will wait for his 'pictures' of problem.

then I will contact ebay. as I am a fairly regular seller with 'above standard' selling status, I have an ebay 'concierge'. if I have a problem, I let them know. then they actually 'ring me' free of charge to sort out the issue. I will then see what they advise.

probably end up refunding him, but not going to give up easily as there was 'nothing wrong' with the model when I sent it. and he waited 5 days to advise of problem.

bought this from ARD from new. only took it out for pics when I got it. didn't notice anything wrong. here are my Flickr pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robert...57663764976320
Your post is contradictory: You want to fight this yet "probably end up refunding him".
I don't think you understand, eBay is NOT going to side with you. Do not waste your time.
I have way more experience with this than you. Whilst I 100% understand your frustration, and believe your side of story, just accept a return at buyer's expense (as per eBay terms and conditions dictates), refund, relist, block him and move on with your life. If the buyer balks at a return/refund and requests partial credit, tell him no, you agree ONLY to full refund as you stand by your sale and condition it was dispatched.
Have a nice day...
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:14 PM   #12
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I see nothing wrong with it and you have no idea what the buyer did after they got it. That is a tough one. I would want clear pics from the buyer of the damage before I did anything further.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALITALIA AZ610 View Post
Trust me, follow this advice. Don't argue, accept to give him full refund upon getting the model back (inspect thoroughly), he will have to pay return ship (according to eBay T&Cs) and then relist the model and move on with your life. Feel free to block him from buying / bidding on your listings.
This is your answer right here. Selling on eBay sounds like a nightmare.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:11 PM   #14
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Having sold on Fee-bay as a Top Rated Seller for several decades (out of the US and Japan) and selling/shipping over 6,300+ items, I've had only a few issues with buyers (about 5 buyers, out of probably 5500+), here's what Ebay's Trust and Safety Seller Policy dictates:

1. If the item (model) is claimed as "Item not as Described", under the Ebay Resolution/Dispute Claim Process, the "Seller" is responsible for all return shipping charges. This includes Customs Duties that the buyer paid and any other applicable fees that the buyer paid to receive the item. Paypal has the same exact policy.

A lot of buyers may not aware of the return shipping "Who pays" policy. Buyer is responsible to ship the item back (just like the seller) in the same condition as received, with tracking information and insurance. However, at the end of day, the seller will end up paying for this.

2. If the item is damaged in transit by the postal carrier or courier service, the "seller" is responsible for all return fees (return shipping, Custom Charges that they buyer paid etc.), if the item is "not" insured and/or the postal/courier service is charging a return shipping and documentation fees. Seller is responsible to file the insurance claim as applicable. If the item is insured, the postal service or courier service will send instructions to the buyer, where to ship or return the item to their facility free of charge (as a general rule).

3. If the buyer decides to change their mind about the purchase (if the seller has a no question asked, return policy) or have buyer's remorse and want to return the item for no cause, then the "buyer" is responsible for return shipping.

Worst case scenario is that you have an unethical buyer who decides to swap out the model with a crappy one that they already have, rather than claiming that they changed their minds (buyer pays return shipping), they put in an "Item not as described" claim, which makes the seller responsible for return shipping.

In the rare instances that I had something like this (yes, there are buyers with micrometers, microscopes and completely OCD), I calculate the return shipping fee with tracking and insurance from their address, add another 10% - 15% of the item cost and offer a partial refund offer.

I've been fortunate that the buyer(s) have always accepted the partial refund offer. No matter how I felt about the buyer (ethics and questioned their integrity), I humbly apologized for the inconvenience and disappointment they felt receiving the item in the said condition, "bit the bullet" and cleared the air.

At the end of the day, I didn't have to hassle the return headaches, paying out the return shipping and have the monies frozen until everything is rectified and having a dark cloud lingering over your head.

Downside, you're still vulnerable to Neutral or Negative Feedback, despite their acceptance of any offer (return, partial refund etc.). Unfortunately, with the one-sided Feedback policy, there's little you can do. But if you have a lot of positive feedbacks, most buyers will come to your defense when they leave you their positive feedback.

If the buyer is not aware about the Ebay Return Policy under "Item not as described" and the seller plays the "Don't ask, don't tell", then you might get away with the buyer paying the return shipping costs. That's really up to the seller to decide, but karma works in strange ways.

Like most previous comments, I would "not" challenge the buyer's claim. Fee-bay will not side with you, as they are buyer protective. Be friendly and see if there is an amicable solution. Upsetting the buyer will only prolong the misery.

Hope everything works out for you!
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:53 PM   #15
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So not to post anything which maybe in error, I just talked to the Ebay Trust and Safety Resolution Center in the US, and they affirmed that for dispute claims for “Item not as described” or significantly different than listed, the “Seller” is responsible for Return Shipping and applicable fees incurred by the buyer.

I guess in the big picture of things, and if everyone was honest and ethical, it makes sense.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:16 AM   #16
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Good answer Mach, I've sold a couple of hundred models on ebay and it's easy to do, but there are mugs out there that you'll never satisfy and always chance their arm. I've only had one and did the same as Mach, calculated the return shipping and added 15%. They ummed and ahhed and so I said no worries return it, all very amicable, job done. Sold the same model the next week for more money, as there was nowt wrong with it.
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:15 AM   #17
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

*UV pen comes in useful.

Yup just bite the bullet and refund plus possibly return shipping?
not worth the trouble.
Note you can leave positive feedback but it doesn't stop you stating facts about the selling experience.....
I won't even ship outside UK now. As even buyers from Europe are
a complete PITA by making demands on costs and packing.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

Sorry to hear this Robert, having bought a few models from you, all my transactions have been extremely satisfactory. Those engines and pylons look fine to me. Be interesting to see what photos he returns to you to compare.
I've even seen you state on previous sales any damage/repair to the model, down to minute detail, so it seems this person is pulling a fast one.
Unfortunately like most of the posters here, I also agree that eBay heavily leans on the side of the buyer in these sorts of cases. I'd also make them post the model back to you on their expense and refund...be interesting when you get the model back whether it is the same one you sent or not.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

Hmmm..Is the Winner of this auction based in California by chance?
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:16 AM   #20
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Only thing I noticed was the difference in colors between the engines and fuselage.
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Old 12-04-2017, 01:25 PM   #21
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I must say I can’t see anything that would cause me concern.
All the best Roger/Mike
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertjon5 View Post
sold this model on fleabay. took 5 fresh pictures of model so pics were 'up to date' and a link to my FLICKR pics I took when I got it. after taking pics I boxed model up before listing ended, so I could post it quick if it sold. just had a message from buyer 5 DAYS after he got it stating........

Hi Robert. Thanks for prompt dispatch. Unfortunately on quick inspection I've noticed this model has been subject to a repair. There is evidence that no 1 (left outboard) engine has been re-attached with glue, and is not in correct location. This should have been noted in the ad description. As I purchase these models for collection and later sale, I would not be able to sell it without stating the above, which could impact its appeal and sale price. I therefore would request that I return the item to you and you provide full refund. Many thanks.





I have asked for pictures as proof.

here is a link to listing.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272945040815?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

so your initial thoughts??? has he damaged it himself and botched repair?? or is he trying to scam me by trying to pass off one he already owns which is damaged? and why has it taken 5 days to notify me. so if you could take a look at picture to see if you can see anything 'wrong' as he states on my listing picture. thanks guys.

I will post 'his' pictures when I get them.
I cannot see anything wrong at all with your model -it looks fine to me.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTS97Z28 View Post
Only thing I noticed was the difference in colors between the engines and fuselage.
This is intentional. I believe the model represents the period in the late 90s where some aircraft had been painted in the utopia livery but with a fleet of 300 aircraft, some aircraft were obviously still in the (better) Landor scheme some months/years after first rolled out.
This airframe must have had new scheme cowlings but the old scheme on the hull at some point which the model represents. Most aircraft actually had more of a mix of colours on each individual engine (as well as nose cones, etc) as engine covers were swapped out etc at various times after the roll out.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:23 AM   #24
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Hmmm..Is the Winner of this auction based in California by chance?
California again ?
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:35 AM   #25
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

Its an auction - buyer beware... E Bay really need to polarize their mechanics..

But you have used the word mint....

Its a funny old world...

Now if the model had been mint.... but reeked of tobacco smoke...??

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Old 12-05-2017, 02:40 PM   #26
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I hope you can proof that your model was mint when you send it away...seems to me the buyer has an another model he wants to get rid of...
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:24 PM   #27
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issue is the gap on the first engine in picture. where it hasn't been fitted 'perfectly'. so its at a slight angle. and you can obviously see some glue. offered him £30 part refund., making model just £73. but he still wants to return it. so whatever.



head on picture shows it barely noticeable. but is closer up.

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Old 12-05-2017, 04:37 PM   #28
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That looks pretty hard to make out from the pics........at least to me. I have others that may have that level of imperfection. I think many do to some extent.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:40 PM   #29
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Crikey! OK, we can't see it with the naked eye, but bad luck on getting a buyer like that. Add them to your blocklist.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:22 PM   #30
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Wow, so he even refused a 30% discount on a basically brand new model... the whole thing looks like a d*ck move to me...I guess it is a risk when selling anything on eBay.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:29 PM   #31
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will just re-list it when it arrives back. case closed!!
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:47 PM   #32
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Can you please share their user ID so I can block them from purchasing from me? Not worth the hassle of dealing with these clowns.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:08 PM   #33
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here is pic of model sender sent. it does show engine at an angle as not quite fitted perfectly. how I missed it I don't know. probably in too much of a rush to post pics!!! I took pics when I got it, and its been back in its box since!

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Old 12-06-2017, 05:39 PM   #34
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just refund, block the buyer (pls post his id so I can block him too). Unfortunately, ebay will be in favor of buyer. Do not try to fight back, like uploading pictures to eBay for judgement, this will result in losing the 10% final value fee!
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:08 PM   #35
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buyer is aware of this thread. so case now closed.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:19 PM   #36
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I don't see why everyone is bashing the buyer. If the last picture truly shows the state of the model when the buyer received it, he has every right to ask for the full refund. As Robert said, he quickly took some photos and put the model back into the box when he got it, so he might have overlooked that defect as well. I never look at my models that carefully when they arrive, but if I happen to see one at that specific angle and see the same thing to one of the engines, I would certainly request to return the model.

Oh, and by the way, if anyone wants to block me as a buyer as well, my ebay id is mathshunter.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:47 PM   #37
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As the buyer involved in this discussion I'm staggered at the vitriol being spread. It seems it was an honest oversight by Robert and, as he says, the matter is closed.

There are other pics I've sent Robert which show what looks like a glue stain on the pylon and gap between pylon and wing where engine has been badly re-affixed. All the evidence points to a poorly executed repair. If I had received it from ARD in this state I would not have accepted it. It seems that Robert wasn't aware of fault until I flagged it.

If I wasn't planning to eventually sell model on I would have agreed discount to avoid hassle on both sides.

I've purchased many models on eBay over years and this is the first time I've had to return model. Robert tells me this is a first for him too, so we are both the wiser for it.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

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Originally Posted by leoteo View Post
I don't see why everyone is bashing the buyer. If the last picture truly shows the state of the model when the buyer received it, he has every right to ask for the full refund. As Robert said, he quickly took some photos and put the model back into the box when he got it, so he might have overlooked that defect as well. I never look at my models that carefully when they arrive, but if I happen to see one at that specific angle and see the same thing to one of the engines, I would certainly request to return the model.

Oh, and by the way, if anyone wants to block me as a buyer as well, my ebay id is mathshunter.
I have to agree with you. The buyer received a model with a defect that was exactly as described in his request for returrn, yet this thread has gone on for quite awhile with most members bashing the BUYER, who in the end was right about the defect.

I have to admit, if I got blocked for a legitimate return, or even happened to read this thread, I WOULD leave negative feedback, and probably lots of it.

It sounds like Robert has resolved this in an honest and agreeable manner. I'm just really surprised about the vitriol expressed by members toward the buyer.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:25 PM   #39
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Default Re: Can You SEE Anything Wrong With This Picture

It just shows even with the best will in the world issues on these models can be missed when selling and as in this case an issue that model had from the factory.

Ultimately for the benefit of both buyer and seller it's always best to fully check items before listing so that the buyer knows exactly what they're bidding on (mentioning any issues) and the seller doesn't have to sort out a refund. It shouldn't be blown out of proportion as many of us have had to return stuff to online shops etc over the years that we've been collecting.

I'm glad to see both parties have resolved this and we can all live and learn from it.
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