Abraham

Smartest post all night. However, I've made a small edit to your post. You, along with countless others on this forum have made note of the one man campaign to attack GJ. You aren't the only one who see's just how silly it looks.

I know you have received countless PM's through this site regarding this individual as have I. People don't forget and do remember the physical threats and off color remarks made by this individual towards employees and family members of GJ/ADI thus making any type of credibility all but void. My advice is to let this individual paint its own canvas as it already has done.

As far as the zinc rot issues in 1/200 GJ models, this is a new issue and answers aren't produced overnight. Hell, I even took a few 757's out today to check and can report nothing on my end. Those demanding an answer and wanting to see changes and guarantees being made tomorrow are delusional at best.

Russell, you know many of the "loyal customers" of GJ on a personal level and know just as well as I do the behavior exhibited by ONE keyboard warrior doesn't represent the majority. For the record this ONE individual is the recent cause for this site having ZERO representation from GJ here. Why would anyone want to engage it?

As a fun experiment I implore the rest of the members here to simply scroll down to the bottom of this site to see who's logged in at any given time. I know each time I do the member in question is logged in 95% of the time. Not sure what you folks think but that's kinda sad. Hours on end spent on a toy airplane forum waiting to engage an old guy who "knows nothing about GeminiJets"? In my opinion thats not just a cry for attention, but a cry for help.

I'll return to the shadows of this board now and can promise there won't be a reply after the bait from this member gets tossed my way.

Enjoy the night and good luck!

Taiga04

This is far more entertaining than watching the Oscars.

BUT

We're all adults (at least by age anyway), we know sometimes things go bad. Nothing is built to last forever anymore. Yes the models are expensive and in a perfect world every model would last forever in perfect condition, but likely a handful of models from every batch will have some defect. I have an a332 that has paint flaking off the tail, it sucks but it happens. Do I think manufacturers are purposefully cutting corners and that is causing the problem? No, it just doesn't make sense, they make money by selling more models to their same customers, and let's be honest, the customer base isn't huge; so if they cut corners and their models are junk people will stop buying and they will go out of business.

Think of it like cars, people buy Toyotas and Hondas because they are "reliable", that doesn't mean that every car off the line is going to meet that reputation, just that less of them are going to have issues than say a Dodge for example.

__________________
I collect:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Looking for: Hogan US Airways a319 - Final Livery

Successfully bought from: Widebody, Travsuz, Nurunet, Buckeyes14, airplanenut5588, IranAir4Ever

arctic9048

Most companies don't go out and say no apology or explanation needed. His arrogance is unmatched.

Mike777

Hey, welcome to the thread Abraham! We now have 2 of the 3 amigos. All we need now is GARUDAROD the SUPER MODERATOR to join us, and then it'll be a real party!

For those of you who don't know, Abraham is another "unofficial" Gemini representative. He too is related to the family business, and the natural bias stemming from this fact should be considered when reading his posts. Also note how professional he is, and how good of an ambassador he is for the family biz. I'm sure everyone who just read his post now thinks more highly of GJ than ever. They treat their customers so well!

It's funny how you keep referring to me as "the member in question." Bro, you can call me Mike. You don't have to beat around the bush. Everyone knows who you're referring to. Now, please, show evidence of the supposed "physical threats" I have made toward Gemini employees, or whatever. That is utter, pure, complete falsehood. I have NEVER done that on this forum, in PM, or anywhere else. As for "off color remarks"? Sure, I'll own up to that. But physical threats? Jesus. You guys are going way too far to discredit me.

A "one man campaign to attack GJ..."? That is SO funny. You guys don't like me, I get it, but as I said in a previous post to crownvic, I'll also say to you: I'm not even the one who started this thread or ANY of the threads on the GJ200 "powdery rot" issue!!! Can you fit that notion through your thick skull?

Finally, I commend you on your attempt at an ad hominem attack by insinuating I'm just some loser who is on DA.C 24/7. When all else fails, that's a good one to resort to. Unfortunately for you, that attempt also failed. So I'm "logged in" to DA.C most of the time you visit? Okay, well you know that users stay "logged in" for like an hour after their last activity on the site, right? And "activity" could simply be loading the page with the box ticked to "remember me." Doesn't mean the user is actively browsing or posting (or nitpicking ). I have a slew of saved websites that open automatically every time I open my internet browser, and DA.C is one of them. Opening up the browser effectively re-logs me into DA.C. So it's not that hard to understand why "the member in question" often appears to be logged in. Did you follow that?

And hey, since you stooped to that level, I'll stoop down and join you. If you're really trying to insult people for their overactivity on DA.C, your pal crownvic has like three times as many posts as I do...

crownvic

please read response 41 and 44 of this previous thread where a DAC member in question wished for gemini jets employees and their families would die...

http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...mini-jets.html

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

mach25

I thought I would "perhaps" shed some light in the explanation of the potential issues of metal degradation or "rot" as commonly called.

I am the person in Japan that asked my brother who is a Chemical Engineer at Dupont Chemicals in the United States, regarding the tarnishing in the 1/200 polished metal models a few months back and posted a thread on this issue. Since I was in town visiting him on a flight layover from Japan, I showed him this hotly contested thread during dinner and asked him for his input. I'm just a pilot but he's an expert on this issue.

Here's his very basic input and thoughts, based on not having the Gemini model for testing at the laboratory.

As the moderator make.me.laugh very correctly stated, aluminum and all metal for that matter, if not treated correctly, will turn back to it's original ore state at one time or another. The term "rot" commonly used, such as Zinc Rot etc., but in actuality, the metal is not rotting but due to peripheral circumstances (air, water, chemicals (organic and inorganic), heat, cold etc.) is reverting back to it's very basic original ore state. Whether is cast silver aluminum or aluminum grey-white power, it's still basically aluminum as an element. It's the Mass Conservation Theory of "Matter can neither be created or destroyed". Although it may change form, it cannot be destroyed. But a simple name rather than degradation and other scientific mumble-jumble name is simply "rot".

Degradation process can begin immediately and take days, weeks, months or years before notice. It really depends on the state of the original metal, how it was processed and the environmental factors, past and current.

For the most part, Chinese metal ore mining manufacturers and their metal distributers (where the company buys the metal from to cast their parts) are extremely "unregulated" and do not adhere to the ISO9000 series (International Standards Organization) of Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management. Hence metal purity and quality as a general rule can become anyone's best guess. It's basically cost versus quality, as ISO adherence is very expensive and requires time and support from the company and employees.

For example, one of the concerns at Boeing who is building their aircraft factory in China, is where they and their sub-contractors are to source the metal vendors for their aircraft. The Chinese government is pressuring Boeing to source their metal vendors from China, yet, many of these vendors are not ISO9000 compliant and even if they are ISO compliant, are subject to shortcuts, "look the other way", "monetary compensation - bribes" for cost control, as per their 2013/2014 audit. Dupont Chemicals works closely with Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers and an entire division at Dupont Chemicals, is dedicated to working with them and during the audit, found the Chinese metal processing and quality assurance appalling.

In a very lowest common denominator, it's like comparing Reynolds Aluminum Foil versus a XYZ Discount Store unknown manufacturer brand of aluminum foil. The Reynolds may be 2 - 3 times more expensive, but you know what you're getting (for the most part). The discount store aluminum foil may break apart, not sustain heat and even be recalled by the Food Safety Department for having mercury inside of the foil sheets (yes...... this actually has happened in Asia).

When my brother did the destructive testing on the Inflight and Aviation 200 models etc., the aluminum body and wings contained multiple metals (some were trace elements) such as Iron, Tin, Nickel, Copper etc along with other human organic contaminants. The aluminum was basically not high-grade (pure would be impractical). Though he did not test for the exact type of aluminum alloy (there are multiple grades), the aluminum used was highly machinable but very low grade, perhaps due to this, is susceptible to corrosion and oxidation (from both external and internal reaction sources). Again, it's about cost, ease and time.

Imagine if you will, an aluminum soda can left out in the elements over time, it'll probably get brittle, as the aluminum is breaking down. Now compare that to the aluminum used on space crafts, the degradation process is much slower due to the grade of aluminum and how the aluminum was chemically treated. But still, the aluminum used on the space craft is degrading, perhaps a million times slower than the aluminum soda can.

Again, even the best surface treated aluminum can corrode, should the base aluminum contain contaminants or other metals within it. If not about "if" but how fast or how slow.

So generally speaking, where does the other contaminants and metal get into the aluminum casting? My brother explained that the aluminum ingots may already have other metals and contaminants inside of it. How it was mined from ore and the quality control measures required to keep it in a highest quality state, from the ore mine to the smelting pot to cast the ingots, is anyone's guess.

Should the manufacturer suspect or have suspicion that the ingots be already contaminants, there is a process to remove it, but again, it's expensive and time consuming.

At the manufacturer's site, when casting the parts, contaminants within the smelting pot if not completely cleaned out can also be the culprit. For many companies, they may smelter aluminum one day, iron the following day and copper the next day etc. To clean out the smelter pots is time consuming, expensive and difficult, it's not as simple as heat up the pot, pour out the remainder metal and wipe clean. To treat the pot correctly, it requires chemical treatment and cleaning the pot "without" damaging the pot, which may bring the actual pot material into the next mix. Hence, ISO9000 series manufacturers will never use the same smelter pot for different types of metals.

So why and what happens during the metal degradation process? Anything really can cause degradation of the metal (natural or induced), from air, chemicals and other contaminants, organic and inorganic. As my brother and perhaps had the best analogy..... "Metal degradation is like bread yeast". In order to make the entire bread batch rise, it only takes a tiny amount of yeast. The same holds true for metal degradation. It only takes a small amount of contaminants to spread like wild fire. Consider the metal contaminants like yeast, as it begins to degrade, it multiplies exponentially. In the metal model, very contaminant is finding a nook and cranny to spread and degrade. Now add oxygen or other chemical elements and you've just accelerated to process.

Even having a tiny pin-prick of a hole in the paint or area where it is not treated correctly, or just happens to be a trace element of a contaminant metal or another contaminant in the aluminum will lead to degradation process. It really only takes one oxygen molecule or another environmental factor to start the entire degradation process. In the case of the Delta 757, the process could have started from where the bare metal pylon attaches to the wing.... just as an example.

Why do you see cracking, warping and bubbling? Without again going into his scientific mumble-jumble, anytime something is changing from one form to another requires "energy". In these model, you may not be able to feel it, see it or smell it, but energy is being produced until the process is over (powered state in this particular case). When you're boiling water and see the bubbles forming, it's energy being produced and the element is changing form from a liquid to a gas. Essentially as the model parts degrades to it's basic ore state (powder), the same process is happening with released energy. If it's under dried paint (and flexible to a point), this energy has no where to go except forming bubbles (cracking the paint if enough energy is produced and the paint was not flexible) or if enough energy is produced, can actually warp out the part without breaking it (though a light tap will fracture the part as only the surface tension is holding the part together and the inside is completely porous and essentially "cooked off").

Can you mitigate the model from the degradation process? Unfortunately no. Once the process has begun, you can't stop it unless you dig out and clean out the entire area and chemically treat it. It's like having a dental teeth decay, the dentist needs to clean out the entire cavity "and" the surrounding areas, chemically treat it from spreading to other area. Not practical for these models.

Can the manufacturers mitigate this process? Boeing is having a difficult time with this in China. I hardly suspect that toy manufacturers will go through the process to ensure that they and the metal distributors are going to be ISO9000 compliant to ensure Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management.

Sorry to ramble on and apologies in advance for the typo and grammar errors, it's long but, hope this information shed some light to the cause of "rot".

Mike777

Huh? Reply 41 in that thread is by GARUDAROD, where he said:

Reply 44 is Abraham.

Are you REALLY that senile, crownvic?

At least GARUDAROD had the courtesy of addressing me directly, instead of calling me "the member in question."

crownvic

Those two posts reference your death wishes to Gemini and its employees families...no I'm not senile just smart
As for referencing your name I am following the direction of the moderator as to not mention names ..thank you for telling everyone it was you,,,

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

tomcatter

i'm losing the plot here... posts #41 and #44 were by garudarod and abraham respectively. can someone please explain to me what the hell happened in between???

jeez... you just take your eyes off da.c a moment and you're left out cold already. can't even wink without missing something

Mike777

Wow. I NEVER wished DEATH to Gemini employees or family. Give me a freaking break. PLEASE show proof. EVEN IF I "wished" ANYTHING upon someone, that's not the same thing as a threat. Far from it. Anyone with at least average reading comprehension skills can clearly see that line.

Pathetic. You guys are just pathetic.

arctic9048

I see responses #41 & #44 where Mike is accused of making physical threats but no actual post from Mike himself making those threats. Care to elaborate where and when he said those things?

Mike777

I told you this last night: it's "YOU'RE", not "YOUR." If you want anyone to take you seriously, quit making third grade grammar mistakes.

crownvic

Its in those two threads...your digging yourself deeper and deeper...total denile and senile...the moderator deleted your original comment but Rod brought it back up and you never denied it so you said it...

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

Mike777

Dude... what?? I am outright denying it right now. I NEVER MADE THREATS TO GEMINI EMPLOYEES OR FAMILY. I NEVER WISHED "DEATH" UPON ANYONE, EITHER.

This discussion has gotten absurd. If I made such a comment, then why was mine deleted, but Rod's wasn't?

crownvic

Rod was only quoting what you said and you never denied it...The moderator missed the fact that Rod was quoting you in that thread...Like I said your digging yourself deeper and deeper..Keep it up and hopefully you will just disappear into the keyboard sunset...

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

crownvic

By the way when you apologized on the forum you said you had too much to drink that night..I may be senile but its selective, like your memory..

CASE CLOSED

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

Mike777

And the post of mine that Rod quoted, nowhere did I make any threats or wish death upon anyone. Are you an idiot?

crownvic

its ok Mr. Arctic to be on his side...he needs the support...

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

Mike777

Ok folks, just to clear the air here:

The reference to "physical threats" is a total misconstruing (and downright slander toward me) of a silly, innocuous, thoughtless, "off color" remark I made in haste about GeminiJets on this site almost a year ago. It was something like, "I wish bad things upon GeminiJets." That's it. It was meant to be sarcastic and somewhat absurd. A rhetorical device, if you will. It was a reply to a thread about ongoing GeminiJets quality issues, and I was merely expressing frustration.

Ooooh, "bad things." NOT death. And NOT a direct threat. Not even close. Nonetheless, crownvic took issue with it, contacted me, and I explained I meant no harm and apologized if it came across the wrong way. crownvic understood AND THEN APOLOGIZED TO ME FOR OVERREACTING, ADMITTING HE READ WAY TOO FAR INTO IT. Case closed.

Now, it seems that crownvic and his pal Abraham are trying to rewrite history, making some seriously slanderous claims about remarks I made. And I don't appreciate it it at all.

Anyone can judge my comments as they deem appropriate. But again, NEVER DID I WISH DEATH UPON ANYONE OR MAKE A THREAT. PERIOD. If you're a decent person, crownvic, then you need to nip this misinformation in the bud. This has gone beyond a simple disagreement about our model airplane hobby.

crownvic

you even p.m.ed me apologizing saying it was the alcohol in you. Did I make that one up???

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

arctic9048

All I asked you is where he made the actual threats. You referenced posts that accused him of doing so but not where he actually did.

arctic9048

It's denial. Then should be than.

Mike777

*Denial

I don't see anyone coming to YOUR defense, either, bud. Except your relative Abraham, who admittedly just hides out in the shadows of this forum. Funny that he got wind of this thread, though. Did he just happen to stumble upon it? That would be odd.

crownvic

I did it on purpose to rhyme with senile...

Your the man! or is it You're the Man! I dont know?

__________________
Gemini Jets 400 Scale....the company collectors love to hate but love to collect..
__________________


Real tomato ketchup Eddie?
Nothing but the best! "I don't know why they call this stuff hamburger helper. It does just fine by itself, huh? I like it better than tuna helper myself, don't you, Clark?"
"you're the gourmet around here, Ed!"

Mike777

Sure, I said something "off color" that was misinterpreted, and I owned it. But I never made a threat. I never "wished death." Perhaps you could see these distinctions.

GARUDAROD was the one who took things much further. And you know what, I had a feeling at the time he actually meant it. But I never saw you harp on him about it. It's cool though, this is just the internet after all.

Mike777

In the interest of staying above board regarding the mess that this has become, here is a PM I just sent to crownvic:

You're a piece of ****. You're basically telling people I made death threats toward you and every Gemini employee, and that is utter and complete bull**** and you know it. If what I said was a 3 out of 10 on the scale of inappropriateness, you're stretching it to an 11 out of 10 by outright lying about the statements I made.

You and I worked this out over PM at the time. YOU also apologized to ME for misinterpreting and overreacting. You said you were stressed out and oversensitive due to the recent death of a family member. Remember?? But now almost a year later, you're trying to dredge this up again in a feeble attempt to attack my character. How about you address the ISSUES I bring up, and not me.

You were a cop, right? That's scary. Did you lie to put someone in prison the same way you're lying about statements I made? Get this through your thick skull: sarcastically wishing "bad things" on someone is NOT akin to making a death threat.

I will back off from attacking GeminiJets if you AND Abraham recant your slanderous statements about me in that thread. You need to acknowledge that I made no direct threats toward anyone, nor did I "wish death." That is all in your head.

Let's see if he does the RIGHT THING and publicly recants his defamatory statements about me. Abraham, too.

Retroguy

How about those Jets last night he?!.....

tomcatter

hey thanks guys for taking the trouble to clarify the back story. i truly appreciate it. i know i kinda derailed your train of thoughts in the midst of your slinging match... but i really do appreciate it (unlike the bunch who quietly share my popcorn but offers absolutely no help whatsoever explaining the plot to me!)

anyway... don't wanna keep you guys away for too long. carry on... please.

make.me.laugh

I'd like to point out that as a moderator I have the ability to open any post that has been deleted by any moderator on DA.C

As such, when I was made aware of Mike777's "Banning" from DA.C, I personally went through over 250 postings of Mike777's (many that had been deleted) during the time that GARUDAROD was SUPER MODERATOR, and at no point could I find any posting that Mike777 had done that contained any threats or abuse towards individuals as reported by GARUDAROD, crownvic or Abraham or to their families. Furthermore what I did find was systematic abuse by GARUDAROD in dismissing other members complaints, shutting down civil debate about models and manufacturers... and threatening other members

QUOTE: from posting #41 as referenced by crownvic above:
GARUDAROD "Oh by the way Mike, I hope you die from a terrible painful debilitating disease."

The ONLY threats I found in my research were those made by GARUDAROD to other members. Even if Mike777 did make that threat through a PM to GARUDAROD, even this CANNOT be referenced in the forum due to Membership Rules which state:

All correspondence between members and the moderators is confidential. Any communication is not to be shared or distributed without the express written consent of the involved member and moderator(s).

Personal messages between members are private and are not to be shared on DAC

Emails from moderators or other members may not be copied into forum threads or elsewhere for public review.

GARUDAROD NEVER formally filed ANY report on the Moderator's page refering to this incident. All moderators are required to submit a thread about any suspensions or dealings with members, so that both the admin and owner are well aware about any actions being taken by the moderators towards any/all members at ALL times.

As such I impore all members to stay clear of this hersay, as there is no proof that it ever happened. As they say, case closed. Please do not refer to it again. (if a member, any member does decide to take umbrage with this, I'm more then happy to suspend you for 7 days, to give you a little time to think over why you thought it was a good idea to become upset and angry at this decision and to carry on ...)

I also unbanned several other members who GARUDAROD had banned for similar reasons. In ALL cases I researched the member's background history of threads and postings on DA.C and found in every case they had been unwarrantedly singled out and abused.

Finally I suggest ALL members brush up on the Rules Of Membership of DA.C

http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...rum-rules.html

Cheers Lou

__________________
"Your Welcome"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

nurunet

Hi Lou, thanks for being a calm voice in this storm. Any ideas how to get this thread back to the topic?

__________________
Successfully bought from: vertigo, LH456, STEVEJ, jixer, 40612, qantas747, HTF200, smanish, Alcon Air, 747-400ERX, AirCanada881, Flight777, crownvic, GiveMeWings, callume190, kevin_flikweert

Successfully sold to: jsjscd9a, Roarer, smanish, fleetlordatvar, DELTA-711, laviru93doodle, sizmo7, ramjet77, mik211, geeforce9, Surinam Air 747, Taiga04, jcruznegron, Buckeyes14, cowlesco, Sonka, Spanish Dragon, fin_airplane_collector

B787@YVR

This was honestly ridiculous! I didn't realise I was on 4chan

B787@YVR

4chan is not a place for the weak thats for sure. I honestly have no idea, all i know is whenever I see posts on other sites linked to 4chan, its something outrageous!

Lets turn this into a Suits situation. Michael who do you call to the stand as your first witness.

TheMadMajor

Lou thanks for outlining the points around Garudarod, talk about giving power to a megalomaniac (perhaps in real life he's the 'Don' Trump of the diecast world)

This place is better off without the likes of him and frankly reading some of the painful crap above I'm again overwhelmed by your patience as a moderator.

The zinc pest situation is one facing many manufacturers, Corgi, Century Wings and now from what I've read and seen here Gemini. Ironically these are 3 of my favourite manus. I'm sure there are other.

Will it make me stop buying? No, not for one minute as a humble collector would I imagine any of them would be taking deliberate shortcuts with their production.

But again this forum is the best place to share the good, bad and the ugly with our models, collectors can form their own opinions.


FFS Crownvic, 'You're' not 'your' man. As in "you're going on like a pork chop"

__________________
WANTED: GJ200 Qatar A380-800 G2QTR425

Eagle_Flyer

It is unfortunate zinc rot is something that can occur within our hobby. It can potentially affect any brand and I have seen it in diecast cars not just planes.

That's a lot of "dudes" dude

make.me.laugh

This post was originally posted by mach25 however due to recent spam attacks on DA.C has been flagged as Spam. It is not and definitely worth a read.

I thought I would "perhaps" shed some light in the explanation of the potential issues of metal degradation or "rot" as commonly called.

I am the person in Japan that asked my brother who is a Chemical Engineer at Dupont Chemicals in the United States, regarding the tarnishing in the 1/200 polished metal models a few months back and posted a thread on this issue. Since I was in town visiting him on a flight layover from Japan, I showed him this hotly contested thread during dinner and asked him for his input. I'm just a pilot but he's an expert on this issue.

Here's his very basic input and thoughts, based on not having the Gemini model for testing at the laboratory.

As the moderator make.me.laugh very correctly stated, aluminum and all metal for that matter, if not treated correctly, will turn back to it's original ore state at one time or another. The term "rot" commonly used, such as Zinc Rot etc., but in actuality, the metal is not rotting but due to peripheral circumstances (air, water, chemicals (organic and inorganic), heat, cold etc.) is reverting back to it's very basic original ore state. Whether is cast silver aluminum or aluminum grey-white power, it's still basically aluminum as an element. It's the Mass Conservation Theory of "Matter can neither be created or destroyed". Although it may change form, it cannot be destroyed. But a simple name rather than degradation and other scientific mumble-jumble name is simply "rot".

Degradation process can begin immediately and take days, weeks, months or years before notice. It really depends on the state of the original metal, how it was processed and the environmental factors, past and current.

For the most part, Chinese metal ore mining manufacturers and their metal distributers (where the company buys the metal from to cast their parts) are extremely "unregulated" and do not adhere to the ISO9000 series (International Standards Organization) of Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management. Hence metal purity and quality as a general rule can become anyone's best guess. It's basically cost versus quality, as ISO adherence is very expensive and requires time and support from the company and employees.

For example, one of the concerns at Boeing who is building their aircraft factory in China, is where they and their sub-contractors are to source the metal vendors for their aircraft. The Chinese government is pressuring Boeing to source their metal vendors from China, yet, many of these vendors are not ISO9000 compliant and even if they are ISO compliant, are subject to shortcuts, "look the other way", "monetary compensation - bribes" for cost control, as per their 2013/2014 audit. Dupont Chemicals works closely with Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers and an entire division at Dupont Chemicals, is dedicated to working with them and during the audit, found the Chinese metal processing and quality assurance appalling.

In a very lowest common denominator, it's like comparing Reynolds Aluminum Foil versus a XYZ Discount Store unknown manufacturer brand of aluminum foil. The Reynolds may be 2 - 3 times more expensive, but you know what you're getting (for the most part). The discount store aluminum foil may break apart, not sustain heat and even be recalled by the Food Safety Department for having mercury inside of the foil sheets (yes...... this actually has happened in Asia).

When my brother did the destructive testing on the Inflight and Aviation 200 models etc., the aluminum body and wings contained multiple metals (some were trace elements) such as Iron, Tin, Nickel, Copper etc along with other human organic contaminants. The aluminum was basically not high-grade (pure would be impractical). Though he did not test for the exact type of aluminum alloy (there are multiple grades), the aluminum used was highly machinable but very low grade, perhaps due to this, is susceptible to corrosion and oxidation (from both external and internal reaction sources). Again, it's about cost, ease and time.

Imagine if you will, an aluminum soda can left out in the elements over time, it'll probably get brittle, as the aluminum is breaking down. Now compare that to the aluminum used on space crafts, the degradation process is much slower due to the grade of aluminum and how the aluminum was chemically treated. But still, the aluminum used on the space craft is degrading, perhaps a million times slower than the aluminum soda can.

Again, even the best surface treated aluminum can corrode, should the base aluminum contain contaminants or other metals within it. If not about "if" but how fast or how slow.

So generally speaking, where does the other contaminants and metal get into the aluminum casting? My brother explained that the aluminum ingots may already have other metals and contaminants inside of it. How it was mined from ore and the quality control measures required to keep it in a highest quality state, from the ore mine to the smelting pot to cast the ingots, is anyone's guess.

Should the manufacturer suspect or have suspicion that the ingots be already contaminants, there is a process to remove it, but again, it's expensive and time consuming.

At the manufacturer's site, when casting the parts, contaminants within the smelting pot if not completely cleaned out can also be the culprit. For many companies, they may smelter aluminum one day, iron the following day and copper the next day etc. To clean out the smelter pots is time consuming, expensive and difficult, it's not as simple as heat up the pot, pour out the remainder metal and wipe clean. To treat the pot correctly, it requires chemical treatment and cleaning the pot "without" damaging the pot, which may bring the actual pot material into the next mix. Hence, ISO9000 series manufacturers will never use the same smelter pot for different types of metals.

So why and what happens during the metal degradation process? Anything really can cause degradation of the metal (natural or induced), from air, chemicals and other contaminants, organic and inorganic. As my brother and perhaps had the best analogy..... "Metal degradation is like bread yeast". In order to make the entire bread batch rise, it only takes a tiny amount of yeast. The same holds true for metal degradation. It only takes a small amount of contaminants to spread like wild fire. Consider the metal contaminants like yeast, as it begins to degrade, it multiplies exponentially. In the metal model, very contaminant is finding a nook and cranny to spread and degrade. Now add oxygen or other chemical elements and you've just accelerated to process.

Even having a tiny pin-prick of a hole in the paint or area where it is not treated correctly, or just happens to be a trace element of a contaminant metal or another contaminant in the aluminum will lead to degradation process. It really only takes one oxygen molecule or another environmental factor to start the entire degradation process. In the case of the Delta 757, the process could have started from where the bare metal pylon attaches to the wing.... just as an example.

Why do you see cracking, warping and bubbling? Without again going into his scientific mumble-jumble, anytime something is changing from one form to another requires "energy". In these model, you may not be able to feel it, see it or smell it, but energy is being produced until the process is over (powered state in this particular case). When you're boiling water and see the bubbles forming, it's energy being produced and the element is changing form from a liquid to a gas. Essentially as the model parts degrades to it's basic ore state (powder), the same process is happening with released energy. If it's under dried paint (and flexible to a point), this energy has no where to go except forming bubbles (cracking the paint if enough energy is produced and the paint was not flexible) or if enough energy is produced, can actually warp out the part without breaking it (though a light tap will fracture the part as only the surface tension is holding the part together and the inside is completely porous and essentially "cooked off").

Can you mitigate the model from the degradation process? Unfortunately no. Once the process has begun, you can't stop it unless you dig out and clean out the entire area and chemically treat it. It's like having a dental teeth decay, the dentist needs to clean out the entire cavity "and" the surrounding areas, chemically treat it from spreading to other area. Not practical for these models.

Can the manufacturers mitigate this process? Boeing is having a difficult time with this in China. I hardly suspect that toy manufacturers will go through the process to ensure that they and the metal distributors are going to be ISO9000 compliant to ensure Standardization of Quality Control, Assurance and Management.

Sorry to ramble on and apologies in advance for the typo and grammar errors, it's long but, hope this information shed some light to the cause of "rot".

__________________
"Your Welcome"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Surinam Air 747

What is your problem Russ, you don't get any more attention so you want someone to eliminate this thread... Why..??? What is the reason behind it..??

I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon because your not a moderator on here!!

__________________
I WANT TO BELIEVE...

...that one day I will see many more colorful JC Wings MD-11 models and the long-awaited Gemini 200 TWA twin stripes 727-200!

I always fly America's favorite airline: Southwest Airlines and the World's oldest KLM!

Paris was the greatest city on earth! Vive la France! Tokyo 2020!

Surinam Air 747

Tell me about it, this old fella crownvic just wants to start trouble again as usual, seems he has nothing better to do than point his finger at others...

It seems that he is on this forum just to troll & seek attention, perhaps he doesn't get it at home!!

__________________
I WANT TO BELIEVE...

...that one day I will see many more colorful JC Wings MD-11 models and the long-awaited Gemini 200 TWA twin stripes 727-200!

I always fly America's favorite airline: Southwest Airlines and the World's oldest KLM!

Paris was the greatest city on earth! Vive la France! Tokyo 2020!

Surinam Air 747

First of all did I ask you for any advise 'Mr Know it all', I don't think so, so mine your own damn business... It seems your the one that doesn't know what your talking about, I know what zinc rot is & what it looks like & the model was indeed damaged because of zinc rot period.

Maybe your the one that's not legit...but then again what do I know...

__________________
I WANT TO BELIEVE...

...that one day I will see many more colorful JC Wings MD-11 models and the long-awaited Gemini 200 TWA twin stripes 727-200!

I always fly America's favorite airline: Southwest Airlines and the World's oldest KLM!

Paris was the greatest city on earth! Vive la France! Tokyo 2020!

make.me.laugh

G'day,

Let us all get back to the matter at hand... Powdery Rot...

Actually let me first explain why I allowed the rantings of 2 members to hijack this thread. The feud has been simmering for the last six months or so, often popping up on one thread or another, never with any explaination or outcome. Just rants, Rants and more RANTS. It has to STOP. So we ALL have the facts now. Drop it or face suspension. (FULL STOP)

Now back to Powdery Rot.

It's way too easy to blame the manufacturer who ordered this models to be made in a factory in China. Clearly Gemini are NOT at fault. They took the time to research the plant where the models are made, took decisions on the best available material to make their models out of. Choosing the most modern material aluminium, over diecast Zinc (probably very much due to the problems of zinc rot identified in the 2000s in manufacturing) and using a cost-effective process to make them.

Now some 6+ years later, aluminium may be showing similar (though different) problems to Rotting, what are we to do..?

First, stand back, breathe some air. This problem is new, never properly documented before in 1/200 - tho rumours have been circulating in 1/400 scale for sometime about aluminium made models. and how they are treated after removal from the die-casting process.

2/ Allow the boffins to do the correct research into why this has happened. It may effect only this one line of models, or it could effect every model ever made... We don't know yet, so rather than guessing let the research happen.

In no circumstances should Gemini (or any other model manufacturer or maker) admit they are at fault here. Why..? Because it opens the flood gates to litigation and eventual bankruptcy. Considering the post above states that many Chinese factories/companies deliberately change their product once a contract is signed, it's clearly unfair to blame Gemini for something they had no knowledge about.

3/ Check your models and report on DA.C if you find any models you suspect are showing Powdery Rot. If possible add some photos also.

It's clearly not a "one-off" as there are now 1,2,3,4,5... and counting, models of members having this same problem.

What doesn't help tho is members blaintly dismissing questions about Powdery Rot and suggesting the poster is at fault.

One of the things that sets DA.C apart from the many Diecast Airplane Forums is we allow open discussion about manufacturers and models. Our goal is to bring you an independent web site run by collectors. This site is not run by, owned by, or financed by a manufacturer, online store or other retail operation. This site is for collectors and is run with collectors in mind - we do not have a hidden agenda and we are not looking to sell you anything.

Hense when I read that no official Rep is involved with running this site (sic), I'm actually proud of that. Sure they do definitely try to run it, often criticising moderators, other members and stifle, incite, suppress, smother and silence discussions by our members on all sorts of topics.

Thing is... this moderator is not buying into it. That's why this thread has 3000+ views and counting in 2 days since posting. Like Powdery Rot... I'm not going away...

Lou

__________________
"Your Welcome"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Richtofen888

I’ve stored away more than a few models I haven’t looked at for years. I pray Zinc rot hasn’t taken the lot of ’em. Yikes!

Surinam Air 747

That is exactly how my Gemini 200 Delta 757 got the zinc rot in the first place, I had it stored in U-haul boxes in my hot garage for years and after inspecting them I found that this Gemini 200 757 had it for sure & many other Aeroclassics ones...

__________________
I WANT TO BELIEVE...

...that one day I will see many more colorful JC Wings MD-11 models and the long-awaited Gemini 200 TWA twin stripes 727-200!

I always fly America's favorite airline: Southwest Airlines and the World's oldest KLM!

Paris was the greatest city on earth! Vive la France! Tokyo 2020!

Rockybudgeboa

Why the hell is everyone bashing Gemini? Oh wait, I know, because a family member is a long time and well respected member of this forum and has been for several years.


Why not bash Herpa, or Hogan or Hobbymaster? I mean have you seen those Hobbymaster A310 models? They must really suck huh? I have several in my collection, go figure

As someone who has over 35 years of Customer Service experience, I personally find this thread nothing more than Abusive and Disgraceful.

Sometimes it does not pay to try to get the last word in when it comes to People with Mental Health issues. Same ones that have been derogatory to both myself and my Special needs daughter.

You think I like it when people say what they do about WE???

How about a little bit of Compassion and less frustration. It just does NOT make sense arguing with Internet Trolls and Bullies who feel that they have all the power in the World behind their keyboards.

To ^^%$ with you and you all know who I am targeting this message at.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Surinam Air 747

Why are you so angry all of a sudden..???

No one is bashing Gemini at all, not me...

I simply started this thread to ask fellow collectors if they had perhaps any zinc rot problems with the early release Gemini 200 B757 models & what could be done to reverse the process or stop it from happening, that's all...

__________________
I WANT TO BELIEVE...

...that one day I will see many more colorful JC Wings MD-11 models and the long-awaited Gemini 200 TWA twin stripes 727-200!

I always fly America's favorite airline: Southwest Airlines and the World's oldest KLM!

Paris was the greatest city on earth! Vive la France! Tokyo 2020!

Rockybudgeboa

I am not angry at you, Sir, but others that have been posting on this thread, have totally pissed me off.

Sorry but I had to say the truth

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

make.me.laugh

Well let me, the moderator answer this. First off, have you read any of the other threads on DA.C in other scales? Often members express their opinions about models and manufacturers. Only when a member personally attacks anther member should a moderator need to step in. The point of open discussion is just that. Good or bad towards a manufacturere or model, it is allowed on this site. If you have a problem with that, there are many other sites available to you which do delete threads because they're run or sponsored by a manugfacturere or retailer.

This isn't a customer service desk. It is an open forum where like minded scale aircraft collectors can meet via the internet and discuss both good and bad points about their models. Ask questions and share experiences and facts. It's made up from many different members with many different passions. I agree that certainly 2 members have been very abusive towards each other, but now that the dirty laundry has been aired, it's over with.

Any time any member harrasses you all you need to is click on the report button (Located under every post it is the red triangle with the '!" point. Click your mouse on it) and one of the moderastors will always investigate your or anyones complaint.

Personally I'm disabled, confined to a wheelchair and there is one member in particular who calls me names and attacks me regularly. He is soon to be removed. Please report personal attacks immediately via the above report link.

Remember that all members have a right to discuss their opinion, good or bad on this site. I will however not tolorate personal attacks by members on other members at any time.

Cheers Lou

__________________
"Your Welcome"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kitty Hawk 1903

You are personally attacked Lou because you are in a wheelchair??????? That is beyond pathetic and grossly inappropriate.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



David

Rockybudgeboa

People are sick and demented. They feel that because they are behind a computer screen that they have super powers and can do things like this to others.

Bullies is what they are

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Taiga04

Keyboard warriors. I thought this was a model airplane forum not a make fun of disabled and special needs people forum.

Anywho

This whole thread could have been about 100 posts shorter if instead of flaming other members and then getting flamed back (oh what a can of worms some Chinese factory worker who was having a bad day on the job a number of years ago opened up). Someone who knows the GJ folks could have just pointed out this thread to them so perhaps someone with GJ could have contacted the OP, as a matter of customer service to see what was going on. I'm sure that GJ wants to know if there are quality control issues in their products, and do what they can to keep their customers happy.

__________________
I collect:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Looking for: Hogan US Airways a319 - Final Livery

Successfully bought from: Widebody, Travsuz, Nurunet, Buckeyes14, airplanenut5588, IranAir4Ever

arctic9048

Kind of like accusing someone of issuing death threats but then can't actually produce any proof that the accused did so.

Mike777

Firstly, Lou, thank you once again for stepping in and providing clarity and levity. You're doing a perfect job of moderating as far as I'm concerned, and I appreciate your assistance in clearing my name from false accusations. Also, that is some GREAT info from mach25. Very relevant to this discussion. And someone reported it as spam, you say? Gee, I wonder who?

I love that show! Looking forward to the season finale this week.

100% agreed. That is sickening and heartless. Sorry to hear about that, Lou, and I hope whoever it is gets kicked from DA.C for good.

Exactly. Still waiting for both Abraham and crownvic to publicly recant and apologize.