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Old 02-23-2008, 12:07 PM   #1
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Default B-2 Stealth Bomber Crashes

Stealth bomber crashes; pilots safe - CNN.com
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:24 PM   #2
 
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Good to know the pilots are safe but there goes $1.2B!!!
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Old 02-23-2008, 02:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: B-2 Stealth Bomber Crashes

Who didn't see this coming at some point? Well, now they have an even 20 of these things. Maybe they can glue this one back together again....
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:20 PM   #4
 
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Its a long process every time these things have bird strikes to get them perfect again. I hate to say it but this one is gone. And this happens on the same weekend a B-52 had to land at Minot International. Not a good week for bombers.
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:48 PM   #5
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Yeah, there's an attrition rate for all of these aircraft. That's why I have to agree that the Air Force needs those 381 F-22s...who knows how many are going to be digging holes over the years. And at $350 mil a pop, that's a big chunk of change. Thank goodness the F-35 is soo much cheaper...HA
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:09 PM   #6
 
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Well the days of pumping out hundreds and hundred of tanks, planes, ships, ect.. are well over. Every piece of military equipment cost so much its a huge loss when things like this happen. Soon war is going to be so expensive, armies will go back to swords, shields, and one large field.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: B-2 Stealth Bomber Crashes

I guess that aircraft are also becoming more reliable which hopefully brings down the attrition rate.

As an example, Australia operated 116 Dassault Mirage IIIO aircraft between Nov 1963 and Feb 1989 (25 years) for the loss of 41 aircraft during its life. (35% aircraft attrition) This includes 11 fatal crashes for the loss of 11 aircrew.

Alternately, Australia replaced the 116 Mirages with 75 F/A-18 Hornets which have been in operation since May 1985 and still operate (23 years so far with a planned withdrawal date of around 2015) with the loss of 4 aircraft (and hopefully no more). (5% attrition) Unfortunately, all 4 crashes have resulted in fatalities with the loss of 5 (4 aircrew and 1 DSTO Scientist).

Interestingly, whilst the aircraft attrition rate was much higher for the Mirage, survivability in the event of a crash seems to be a great deal lower than that of the Hornet. I'm not sure what gives here, I would have assumed that the Hornet would have significant advances in terms of aircrew egress and survivability systems compared with the Mirage. Perhaps the aircrew's confidence in the modern day systems is such that they falsely believe they can still gather it up.

As an aside, I was lucky enough to get a Hornet ride a few years ago and during the pre-flight brief, the Pilot (my future CO) said to me; "In the event of a major failure of the aircraft you will hear me say; EJECT; EJECT; WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU STILL DOING IN HERE, RAY; EJECT"

I hope this has been food for thought.
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by gospodin View Post
Who didn't see this coming at some point? Well, now they have an even 20 of these things. Maybe they can glue this one back together again....
I read somewhere that because it was so stealthy they can't find the wreckage

Here's a picture of my Dragon Wings Stealth Bomber.
I think it is a great model.
The F-117 that comes with it is very nice too.

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Old 02-25-2008, 08:28 AM   #9
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Default Re: B-2 Stealth Bomber Crashes

Of course, how many of those crashes were human error rather than mechanical failure? Human error almost always involves a fatality, whereas a mechanical problem many times gives the opportunity for escape. There aren't that many pilots willing to ride their plane into the ground if they can help it (although the pilots of that billion-dollar B-2 must have thought about it...).
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:31 AM   #10
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I read somewhere that because it was so stealthy they can't find the wreckage

Here's a picture of my Dragon Wings Stealth Bomber.
I think it is a great model.
The F-117 that comes with it is very nice too.
Nice pics there, Q...but I think I see their shadows, and there's definitely an oil stain under the B-2....
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:42 AM   #11
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Ya found me by the old shadow trick!
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:00 AM   #12
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I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ? Maybe you experts can share your knowledge why USAF needed that many B2's
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:19 AM   #13
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I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ? Maybe you experts can share your knowledge why USAF needed that many B2's
Endless debate... Do we need weapons and war ? Of course not. Do we have them anyway ? Unfortunately yes. Anyone willing to argue ?...
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:25 AM   #14
 
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I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ?
In many parts of the 3rd world, a lot of people live on $1 a day...that will make it 1.2B people, about 20% of the world's population.

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Endless debate...
And you're right, it's an endless debate...why don't you tell us more about the Mirage?
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Old 02-25-2008, 12:59 PM   #15
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And you're right, it's an endless debate...why don't you tell us more about the Mirage?
Well, it's an optical illusion often encountered in deserts, isn't it ?...
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:19 PM   #16
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"I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ? Maybe you experts can share your knowledge why USAF needed that many B2's"

Think about it for a bit. Say you did take all the money for war machines and defense and spent it on food and material things instead. So now you have a huge population that wants more material things. The Human factor, greed, want, power, etc, comes into play and suddenly you have a mass war. Because in history, there have always been bad people, people that want things they cannot have, people that take things they don't deserve. Good people that do nothing to let bad things happen because they think it really should not happen and end up allowing things to happen in a very bad way.

THATS why we spend money on defense like we do. Because as much as we hate to admit it, there are bad people out there that do bad things. And giving them peace, foods and comfort is not what bad people want. Evil wins when good people do nothing.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:30 PM   #17
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Because as much as we hate to admit it, there are bad people out there that do bad things. And giving them peace, foods and comfort is not what bad people want. Evil wins when good people do nothing.
Strange way of seeing human nature. So I guess in your mind those "bad people" were born "bad" too...
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:55 PM   #18
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I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ? Maybe you experts can share your knowledge why USAF needed that many B2's
This isn't the UNICEF forum, this is the 1:1 scale Military Aviation forum last I checked.
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Old 02-25-2008, 08:45 PM   #19
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I wonder how many mouths that $1.2B could feed in the 3rd world country ? Maybe you experts can share your knowledge why USAF needed that many B2's
There will always be mouths to feed regardless of whether we buy mega-expensive bombers or not. How many people would the money for an aircraft carrier feed? I do know that these are weapons deemed important to the defense of our nation by people wayyy smarter and more knowledgeable than most of us here. But I have to admit, before they began flying some pretty spectacular and successful missions, I thought the B-2 was going to be the world's most expensive lawn ornament...they'd be too afraid to fly the thing!
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:22 PM   #20
 
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QFA, nice pic, the wonder women jet looks great in the background.

Mystere, God bless your dream world, but in reality the B-2 and all the other military aircraft are needed. End of story. Besides those third world countries are not always that peacefull themselves. Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, ect...
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:37 PM   #21
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This isn't the UNICEF forum, this is the 1:1 scale Military Aviation forum last I checked.
Last time I checked, it is called sarcasm. Yes ofcourse because of the Coldwar, and the US had lots of funds at that time... and the coldwar ended, funds lacked.. or did it ??

Look, man I'm in favor to it as much as you are, but just think about it, forget the war and stuff like "we need this aircrafts because of the bad people here and there". Just put that on the side for just one second, I believe US used to have 22 B-2's or more, correct me if Im wrong. well make that 21 x B2's now, because of the downed aircraft. 22 x 1.2Billion of dollars would make these third world populations going from skinny to fat people like the average american in no time. No offense to americans here.
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Old 02-25-2008, 10:17 PM   #22
 
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c-rex, You have just totaly insulted me.......as I sit here and eat my bowl of ice cream with hershey syrup.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:47 PM   #23
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Last time I checked, it is called sarcasm. Yes ofcourse because of the Coldwar, and the US had lots of funds at that time... and the coldwar ended, funds lacked.. or did it ??

Look, man I'm in favor to it as much as you are, but just think about it, forget the war and stuff like "we need this aircrafts because of the bad people here and there". Just put that on the side for just one second, I believe US used to have 22 B-2's or more, correct me if Im wrong. well make that 21 x B2's now, because of the downed aircraft. 22 x 1.2Billion of dollars would make these third world populations going from skinny to fat people like the average american in no time. No offense to americans here.
Sarcasm, really? I would have never guessed. In the real world, the B-2 is needed and justified. In the real world 26 billion dollars won't go that far in feeding these third world nations. First off, the logistics will eat up huge amounts of that figure. Second, war and corruption will eat up even more of that figure. By the time the food actually gets to it's destination you'll be lucky if you have a quarter of that figure.

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Old 02-26-2008, 11:00 AM   #24
 
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Im all about the flower power
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:16 AM   #25
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"Strange way of seeing human nature. So I guess in your mind those "bad people" were born "bad" too."

Your bad assumption, not mine.

But the reality is there are and always have been bad people in the world. To not see that is to blind yourself to the point of being dangerous to yourself and those around you. Those that try to push a peaceful movement of no arms are the ones that allow evil to persist and gain a good foothold in the world.

If the world was perfect, I would not mind see heavy restrictions on guns. Other than the loss to sport shooting, the safety factor would be a great benefit to do so. But as long as there are bad people and bad governments, people should have the right to defend themselves. Taking that away from them is taking away a basic survival capability. Whether that is on a personal level or a level of national security. It gives bad people who are breaking the law already a upper hand. Telling someone that is going to use a handgun illegally that now they are going to break another few laws when they are breaking several already really does not have an impact on them. "Hey stop that, now its really really really really illegal" just does not stop a bad person from doing bad things.

I believe that all people have free will to decide what they are going to do in life. Whether they are from an elite portion of society or the bottom class, they are not doomed by society and their environment. Or given ultimate elite status that excuses any behavior. Each person decides what they are going to do, weighs the consequences and decides what they are going to do of their own volition. You have great people that are stuck in terrible conditions because that is how things have happened. Its not their own fault, but free will allows them to make the most or worst of what they are given. Unfortunately, some choose to take moral and ethical steps that are in the direction of evil. The history of mankind has always had this. You have the great and the bad. Thats just reality and you should not bury your head to that which is around you or you effectively restrict yourself to dealing with that reality. And restricting others from defending themselves is an ethical crime in itself.
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:36 PM   #26
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"Strange way of seeing human nature. So I guess in your mind those "bad people" were born "bad" too."

Your bad assumption, not mine.

But the reality is there are and always have been bad people in the world. To not see that is to blind yourself to the point of being dangerous to yourself and those around you. Those that try to push a peaceful movement of no arms are the ones that allow evil to persist and gain a good foothold in the world.

If the world was perfect, I would not mind see heavy restrictions on guns. Other than the loss to sport shooting, the safety factor would be a great benefit to do so. But as long as there are bad people and bad governments, people should have the right to defend themselves. Taking that away from them is taking away a basic survival capability. Whether that is on a personal level or a level of national security. It gives bad people who are breaking the law already a upper hand. Telling someone that is going to use a handgun illegally that now they are going to break another few laws when they are breaking several already really does not have an impact on them. "Hey stop that, now its really really really really illegal" just does not stop a bad person from doing bad things.

I believe that all people have free will to decide what they are going to do in life. Whether they are from an elite portion of society or the bottom class, they are not doomed by society and their environment. Or given ultimate elite status that excuses any behavior. Each person decides what they are going to do, weighs the consequences and decides what they are going to do of their own volition. You have great people that are stuck in terrible conditions because that is how things have happened. Its not their own fault, but free will allows them to make the most or worst of what they are given. Unfortunately, some choose to take moral and ethical steps that are in the direction of evil. The history of mankind has always had this. You have the great and the bad. Thats just reality and you should not bury your head to that which is around you or you effectively restrict yourself to dealing with that reality. And restricting others from defending themselves is an ethical crime in itself.
I really wonder where "evil" starts for you. Obviously engaging in an illegal war, plotting against legal governments you don't agree with, or having companies exploiting kids to get low costs isn't "evil" enough for you. Of course, you're on the "good" side... Trying to simply understand how things work in the real world won't make you weaker, but it can be uncomfortable. Now I can easily understand you're not prepared to think that way, but after all, if I got your point, it's a choice YOU freely made, isn't it ?...
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Old 02-26-2008, 01:39 PM   #27
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...people wayyy smarter and more knowledgeable than most of us here.
Arguable...
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Old 02-26-2008, 02:07 PM   #28
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"I really wonder where "evil" starts for you. Obviously engaging in an illegal war, plotting against legal governments you don't agree with, or having companies exploiting kids to get low costs isn't "evil" enough for you. Of course, you're on the "good" side... Trying to simply understand how things work in the real world won't make you weaker, but it can be uncomfortable. Now I can easily understand you're not prepared to think that way, but after all, if I got your point, it's a choice YOU freely made, isn't it ?..."

As noted before, many assumptions made there.

And fallacies of logic in assigning blame to events that I do not have control over. However, I do have set principles based on ethics rather than morals that change to the whims of society. The basics of good and evil are pretty simple concepts. Either you base you life upon them or you do not. Nor is it my place to judge anyone. I base how I interact with others upon those actions I can observe, but as for giving final judgment... not my place to do so. I do not have all the facts and to base ethical / moral absolutes upon someone and without them it would be foolish to do so. At some point, you do have to lay some trust in those that you do interact with as well societal leaders and try to do your best to direct it as you can. But to condemn a person for something they do not have control of shows a lack of common sense.

Finally, I would not want to be the one to have to make the final judgment on others even with all the facts. Too high of a pedestal for myself to aspire to, nor do I know any human out there that would have the knowledge and authority to do so.
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Old 02-26-2008, 07:52 PM   #29
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Now that would make a good thread on "Off-Topic"..."What is the true nature of evil?" Bet a lot of folks would chime in on that one....
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:15 PM   #30
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First off, on the B-2, I find it a good thing those pilots bailed out. It'll be interesting to see what did it, as these thing just don't fall out of the air.

As in the "expensive war machine blah blah blah" stuff? I guess that we should remember that these thigns also have a mission of peace, ok, we obviously won't have B-2s carrying food packs to 3rd world countries in the bellies, at least not while they're currently in service. But we (as people) do have C-130s, IL-76s, various fighters, carrying and protecting the supplies that go to these countries. We must not forget that there are some very well armed factions that would like to hijack that shipment going to starving families and children and use it for their own good (by using to feed their armies or sell it at highly inflated prices on the black market.) Where does the UN get the machines to help out most of the time? From different militaries. You know, there could be a chance that these planes (B-1, B-2, etc.) are running missions as I am typing to keep these war mongering factions that are forcing people to starve and die back and away for these vital supplies. Remember, the military dosn't announce every movement of their aircraft, and for a reason.
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:22 PM   #31
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B-2 crash revives airworthiness worries

"The USAF lists the pre-inflation price of a single B-2 as $1.16 billion, making the event arguably the most expensive aircraft mishap in history."
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Old 06-08-2008, 05:22 PM   #32
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Video of the actual crash has been posted online.

B2 Stealth Bomber Crashes*Video

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:30 AM   #33
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Endless debate... Do we need weapons and war ? Of course not. Do we have them anyway ? Unfortunately yes. Anyone willing to argue ?...
I'm I to understand we let a pacifist in the military aviation forum, and what's worst a French one.

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