Canada has taken the first formal step toward buying used Australian FA-18 fighter jets, upping the ante in a trade dispute with U.S. defence giant Boeing.
Public Services and Procurement Canada quietly posted notice on its website over the holiday weekend that it has sent a formal letter expressing interest in the surplus warplanes.
The purchase, if it goes ahead, would mean there would be no need for the Liberal government to enter into a deal with the U.S. government to buy 18 advanced Super Hornet jets.
That plan has been in a holding pattern since Boeing filed a trade complaint last spring against Montreal-based Bombardier, an action which recently resulted in the U.S. Department of Commerce proposing duties of as much as 300 per cent on the import of passenger jets.
Unveiled on eve of trade trip
The potential Australian deal turns up the heat on the U.S. aerospace contractors, which claims Bombardier's CSeries jet is being sold in the U.S. market at cut-rate prices because of Canadian government subsidies.
The letter to the Australian government was submitted on Sept. 29, according to a statement issued by public works. Yet the Liberal government chose to keep it under wraps until the day before Prime Minister Justin Trudeau departed for Washington, where on Wednesday he will talk trade with U.S. President Donald Trump and key members of Congress.
The statement from public works does not indicate how many fighters the Royal Canadian Air Force might get, or what the potential time frame for delivery might be.
"Canada expects to receive a response by the end of this year that will provide details regarding the availability and cost of the aircraft and associated parts that Canada is considering," said the statement.
"Separate discussions with Boeing related to the interim purchase of Super Hornet aircraft remain suspended."
Canada still talking with U.S.
The U.S. State Department recently granted Canada permission to buy the warplanes, which are a bigger, more advanced version of the FA-18s, in a direct sale from the Pentagon for an expected $6.3 billion.
Public works said Canada is still talking with the U.S. government "as it explores all options moving forward."
The Liberal government has the option of pulling out of the Super Hornet deal, but has for the moment elected to wait to review a formal Pentagon proposal.
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said in a recent conference call with reporters that air force staff looked at the possibility of buying used Kuwaiti FA-18s, which are somewhat newer than the Australian models, but those warplanes are not yet on the market.
Capability gap
The Liberals insist the fighters are necessary to close a capability gap.
Sajjan has said the air force does not have enough jets to meet its Norad and NATO commitments at the same time.
Critics have urged the government to forget about the idea of any stopgap purchase and move immediately towards a full competition to replace the existing fleet of CF-18s, which are over 30 years old.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian FA-18 fighter jets
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
I agree with your comment as well. You figure that 2 Commonwealth countries can come to some sort of an agreement?
know the saying, "the enemy of my enemy..."?
okay... not exactly the right quote since roo island still requires uncle sam's consent before they onsell their surplus to maple country, but yeah, commonwealth nations are pretty used to hand-me-downs actually.
Canada has ditched a plan to buy 18 Super Hornet jet fighters from U.S.-based Boeing Co. and will instead buy 18 used F-18 fighters from Australia.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had previously warned that Canada would stop doing business with Boeing if the company doesn't drop a trade complaint against Canadian plane maker Bombardier, and the government warned again on Tuesday that Boeing would have little chance of winning a new contract for 88 additional fighter jets under the status quo.
Trudeau's government also said Tuesday that it would assess companies' overall impact on Canada's economy before buying the 88 additional fighter jets to replace its aging F-18s.
“Bidders responsible for harming Canada's economic interest will be at a distinct disadvantage compared to bidders who aren't engaged in detrimental behavior,” Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough said.
Boeing spokesman Scott Day acknowledged that the statement was directed toward the company and said that Boeing respects the Canadian government's decision to buy the Australian planes. Day also said the company would review the requirements for the new fleet and emphasized what he said was Boeing's long-term presence in Canada.
“I think you have to let our record speak for itself,” Day said in an email.
Boeing claims Bombardier's new C Series passenger aircraft receives subsidies that give it an advantage internationally.
Canada had been in talks to purchase the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet fighter jets from Boeing in an effort to bridge the gap between its aging F-18s and the new fighter fleet that it plans to purchase.
But officials said the Australian jets will cost significantly less than Super Hornets and can be put into action two years earlier. “We have received an offer for sale of F-18 aircraft from the government of Australia, which we intend to pursue, and we have received an offer of Super Hornets from the U.S. government, which we intend to let expire,” Qualtrough said.
Jonathan Vance, chief of the defense staff of the Canadian Armed Forces, said Canada can't meet its domestic and international obligations without some form of supplemental capability until the future fighter fleet is in place and the Australian jets will work fine.
Canada will begin receiving deliveries of the used Australian jets next year. The value of the deal is about $388 million.
Vance expects the fleet of 88 next-generation fighters to arrive in 2025, and the government said the competition would be open to all companies as bidding gets underway.
Analysts see the F-35 made by Boeing rival Lockheed Martin as a likely contender, even though Trudeau has said it is too expensive. Trudeau has since softened that stance.
Defense Minister Harjit Sajjan said the new fleet of planes is required to meet Canada commitments to NATO and the North American Aerospace Defense Command.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
This doesn't bother me, and given the circumstances with the U.S. at the moment, it seems like a reasonable stopgap solution. Various sources have suggested that these may largely be used as 'parts mules', with many more living out their life expectancy in an active role. What happens next, though, could be concerning.
We WILL still have to get NEW aircraft from somewhere. Even recently I've heard the word 'Lockheed' mentioned once or twice in the media (CBC). But given the current situations in Trump-land, and the fact that we have signed a significant trade deal with the EU, I'm wondering why we aren't considering a 'Euro-solution'? To me, that looks obvious, but perhaps the RCAF folks (who are far closer to this than I) may have good reasons why not. But not all is dark and gloomy -- the current state in the U.S. won't last much longer and my guess is, more reasonable heads will prevail in due course.
Just sayin' . . .
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Why don't you folks just buy some French jet's and get over the whole political thing? !
Actually I am a RCAF fan and hope they somehow come out on top of this BS! Does not appear they will at this point.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
The ties between the U.S. and Canada are far too deep to be upended by a single administration. The career military folks on both sides are likely as tight as brothers and understand the big picture is best served in rational fashion. None of this is to say the Canadians can't, shouldn't or won't do a deal with Europeans, but interoperability with the U.S. side is crucial.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Gentlemen, here is the latest update on this topic. Looks like another 4 years or more before they finalize the deal with the used FA-18 jets that the Australian govt wishes to unload/sell to the Great North.
It will be 2022 before the Royal Canadian Air Force receives all of the used Australian fighter jets the Liberal government intends to purchase, says senior defence official.
The plan was rolled out with much fanfare at the end of last year because the air force has faced — in the words of Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan — an "urgent capability gap" and is not able to meet its NATO and Norad commitments at the same time.
Pat Finn, who is in charge of the materiale branch of National Defence, told CBC News in a recent interview a final agreement is still months away.
He is confident, however, everything will come together.
Delivery is "staggered over three years," Finn said.
The Trudeau government announced in December it would buy 18 used Australian "classic" FA-18s as an interim measure to bolster the air force until the entire Canadian fleet of CF-18s is replaced, beginning in the mid-2020s.
It had wanted to buy brand new Boeing Super Hornets, the newer, bigger, more advanced version of the FA-18 and CF-18. The plan was scuttled when the manufacturer, Chicago-based Boeing, filed a trade complaint against Canadian aerospace giant Bombardier.
No price tag for the Australian deal was released at the time of the formal announcement, which was made by Sajjan and Public Works Minister Carla Qualtrough.
Ongoing discussions
Finn said those details are still being worked out.
The Liberal government said in December the first used fighters, which were purchased by Australia around the same Canada bought its CF-18s, would arrive by January 2019.
Finn said the delivery schedule is being finalized, but he anticipates receiving the first two warplanes by the summer of that year.
Another one would follow by the end of the year, but much depends on the Royal Australian Air Force and how quickly it retires the fighters and the age of what's being offered.
"They, of course, release aircraft as they get aircraft," Finn said. "We do not necessarily want the oldest aircraft, so we would like to have an ongoing discussion."
He said there is some flexibility and if "summer '19 turns into" something a few months later because they can get a better jet, then it's something that can be negotiated.
The Australian government is in the process of seeking permission to sell the planes because they were originally manufactured in the U.S.
Once the Australian warplanes arrive in Canada, they will need to be given life-extension modifications that will bring them up to the standard of the CF-18s, which have been modified to continuing flying until 2025.
It stands in stark contrast to the urgency with which the Liberals initially painted the shortage of fighter aircraft.
"In 2025, the CF-18s will not be able to fly, and it is important that we move very quickly in filling this capability gap." said Sajjan in June 2016.
Finn said the air force is managing the capability gap by making more CF-18s available for operations on a daily basis.
"We're basically working right now to increase the availability of our current airplanes," he said.
Experts say that would mean pouring more than expected into the maintenance budget in order to keep fighters on the flight line.
Urgent purchase?
One defence analyst said the government has a strange definition of urgent.
"Nothing about the handling of this file lines up with the identification of it as an urgent need, either the interim or the permanent purchase," said Dave Perry, an expert in procurement at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.
He said he believes it will present a political headache for the Liberals come the next election.
"The fact that this government may, at best, have a couple of second-hand aircraft before the next election after having identified an urgent need to acquire new fighter aircraft is just incredible," he said.
When the Australian deal was announced, the government also laid out a timeline for the full replacement of the CF-18s, which were purchased in the 1980s, but extensively modified and upgraded in the early 2000s.
Public Works recently held a consultation day with defence contractors, but Perry says no one seems to understand why it will take until the early 2020s to launch the competition.
When the former Conservative government was struggling over whether to buy the F-35 stealth fighter, it conducted extensive research on the alternatives and possible types of warplanes Canada would need.
That research, which conceivable could move things along faster, was largely discarded by the Liberals and is gathering dust on a shelf, Perry says.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
doesn't seem to say these are super hornet. The capability difference between reg hornet and super hornet are pretty big. so while they might save some money and punish boeing, are they getting the capability they need?
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
They are classic Hornets and the order is now for 25. Although some of those will be non-flying.
Considering the delays with the F35, with the first lot arriving in Australia in Dec I can say with certainty the 25 the RCAF is getting are the ones the RAAF have identified to be moved on first.
The RAAF Hornets are clapped out and need a lot of work.
In my view this is a poor decision based only on political considerations.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTF200
Ah but if Canada had bought some rafales, it would have a real air force.
I am not quite sure why there is a delay or even the need for RAAF F18s?
I understand over the political rubbish regarding the F35.But, as you have rightly pointed out there are alternatives.
I suspect the F35 is still the number one option. But no one in the Trudeau Government wants to make a decision. I suspect its because the F35 is actually what they want and they want years between cancelling the program and reinstating it to negate the political pain,.....or they want to delay it so they don't have to pay for it now and perhaps further down the track someone else will make the decision.
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
The Royal Canadian Air Force marked the arrival of two used Australian fighter jets with a ceremony on Sunday in Cold Lake, Alta.
Canada is buying 18 used F-18s and parts from Australia to address a shortage of fighter jets between now and 2032, when 88 new fighter aircraft are expected to be in operation.
“These aircraft are the same type as Canada’s current CF-18 fleet and can be integrated quickly into our fleet,” the Department of National Defence said Sunday in a press release.
“Modifications and technical work will begin immediately so they can be brought to a similar configuration to Canada’s CF-18 aircraft,” the department adds. “The work will continue to be done by Canadian companies.”
According to the press release “deliveries will continue at regular intervals for the next three years.”
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the purchase is “key to ensuring the Royal Canadian Air Force can continue to fulfill their missions and ensure the safety of Canadians and Canada.”
“We are familiar with these aircraft and are confident that they can provide the additional support our current fleet requires,” he added. “They were flown in yesterday by the Royal Australian Air Force and I look forward to seeing them fly again soon in our Canadian colours.”
Former auditor general Michael Ferguson, who died earlier this month, said in November that the military shouldn’t buy more planes because it doesn’t even have the pilots and mechanics to operate its current fleet.
The used jets are estimated to cost $471 million to purchase and modify. The government is expected to spend about $3 billion more to modernize the entire fleet, which will be 50 years by 2032.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
As the Brits might say " Bloody Waste of Time" eh? "Used" means USED and a 3rd Gen airplane isn't it? The RCAF takes it in the shorts. To bad as they deserve the best out there if it be the F35 , the F-18E,G,f, Typhoon or any other 4th Gen airplane.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers747
As the Brits might say " Bloody Waste of Time" eh? "Used" means USED and a 3rd Gen airplane isn't it? The RCAF takes it in the shorts. To bad as they deserve the best out there if it be the F35 , the F-18E,G,f, Typhoon or any other 4th Gen airplane.
I hear ya and totally agree with your post. Unfortunately, our govt has put the military on the bottom of the totem pole for funding. I could get into the specifics of what our govt considers priorities for $$$, but I would probably get 'banned' for my comments. Cheers! T7
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
I hear ya and totally agree with your post. Unfortunately, our govt has put the military on the bottom of the totem pole for funding. I could get into the specifics of what our govt considers priorities for $$$, but I would probably get 'banned' for my comments. Cheers! T7
This is a baseless comment, DND's budget has been increased continuously under this government (this year we have $20.4 billions vs. $18.6 billions last year). The plan is to go to about $30 billions before 10 years.
The fact is that we are not able to spend it and we return billions every year!
I do use we as this is part of my job
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBL
This is a baseless comment, DND's budget has been increased continuously under this government (this year we have $20.4 billions vs. $18.6 billions last year). The plan is to go to about $30 billions before 10 years.
The fact is that we are not able to spend it and we return billions every year!
I do use we as this is part of my job
Greetings, so please enlighten me if this current govt has increased $$$ for the defense budget, why are we flying almost 40 year old F-18s? Don't get me talking about the ancient planes the Snowbirds are risking their lives in during airshows.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
Greetings, so please enlighten me if this current govt has increased $$$ for the defense budget, why are we flying almost 40 year old F-18s? Don't get me talking about the ancient planes the Snowbirds are risking their lives in during airshows.
My organization is in ADM(MAT) (the one that buy everything for the CAF), we are in direct support the project offices for procurement but also WSM, LCMM and class desks. I run a scientific program which support daily all of these, particularly when there are issues (and I am talking about the serious ones, like failure investigation). We also assist these for life extension of the weapon (we usually contribute to most of the engineering or scientific testing).
The CF188 interim capability is a very wise use of taxpayer's money. This will bring us easily to the introduction of the new fighter in 5 or 6 years (if we are lucky) and could do the job for many more years as there is plenty of life left in the CF-188 cells. With the Australians F/A-8 the RCAF will also have the required numbers to fulfil their mission.
The PMO for the new fighter is working very hard to select the best product for the RCAF, this is all I can say here.
Wrt the CT-114 Tutor (which is the plane used by the Snowbird team), there is also plenty of life left in the cells, and we have a lot of spare planes. I don't think there are plans to replace them before a decade. They are very good planes.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBL
The CF188 interim capability is a very wise use of taxpayer's money. This will bring us easily to the introduction of the new fighter in 5 or 6 years (if we are lucky) and could do the job for many more years as there is plenty of life left in the CF-188 cells. With the Australians F/A-8 the RCAF will also have the required numbers to fulfil their mission.
The PMO for the new fighter is working very hard to select the best product for the RCAF, this is all I can say here.
.
If we are lucky?? Looks like we haven't been lucky with the military assets the past 2-3 decades.
Good to hear that you think we can keep flying the CF-18s until they reach the 50-60 year life spans.
Don't get me started with the current PMO office! Looks like the puppet master has left the 'official' office, but the two of us know that JT is now on the phone with Butts (aka The 'actual' PM!) every hour of the day, asking him what to say to the media "umm, urrrr, ahhhh. mmmmm. ahhhh. uuuhhh" .
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBL
Again you are showing lack of knowledge.
At DND, PMO stands for Project Management Office: this is the team that is responsible for the purchase of a weapon system.
I personally know the head of the PMO for the next Fighter project, he is a very capable guy, ex-RCAF officer. We will get the best aircrafts.
And contrary to what you seem to think, buying a $20 billion weapon system takes time, a lot of it out of your hands.
My bad, I deal with our PMO office/group as well at my office as well (don't get me started with them, ) . Going to assume that the DND's PMO office reports up to the PMO office in Ottawa?
Yep, beyond your control about 'out of your hands', that would lie with the PMO in Ottawa. Cheers! T7
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Hi CBL, I came across this post on CBC. Mentions the DND a few times and not in a very good light. Very sad to see the Auditor General report that the current CF-18 availability will be reduced, due to the purchase of the 'used' F-18s.
In 2015 Mr Trudeau campaigned on an immediate open competition to replace the CF-18 fleet while simultaneously excluding one of the major contenders (the F-35).
In 2016 the Commander of the RCAF stated that the current CF-18 fleet was sufficient for tasks if the government held the competition.
Later in 2016 the government, again according to the RCAF commander, changed the counting rules to create a"capability Gap".
In 2017 the Liberal Party preferred solution of a delayed competition and a sole source Superhornet purchase fell apart when Boeing threatened the corporate bonuses at Bombardier.
In 2018 Canada started negotiation for used Australian F-18s as an interim. The Australians are replacing their F-18s with F-35s (excluded by Mr Trudeau in his 2015 campaign promise).
In 2018 we also found out that the Auditor general reported that DNDhad told the government that the Superhornet purchase would actually reduce the current jet availability.
So we have been paying into the F-35 since 2015 while the RCAF and DND have been diverted from replacing the CF-18 fleet by searching for an interim solution to a political requirement to help Mr Trudeau escape his own campaign promises.
Mr Trudeau's military priorities are being shown.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Missing from all the politicking and economics is a discussion over which aircraft is actually better for Canada, which preferred the original CF-18 in part because it had two engines rather than single-engine planes such as the F-15, F-16 and French Mirage F-1 (the F-35 also has one engine). One consideration is that the RCAF has to patrol and protect a vast swathe of Arctic territory, a region rich in mineral resources and shipping routes that are coveted by multiple nations, including Russia and the United States.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Well, I must salute the Australian government with this deal with Boeing. Looks like Canada provided the $$$$ for this joint venture with the used F-18 fighter jet sales!
The Australian government is investing A$40 million (22 million pounds) in the prototype programme due to its "enormous capability for exports," Minister for Defence Christopher Pyne told reporters at the Australian International Airshow.
Defence contractors are investing increasingly in autonomous technology as militaries around the world look for a cheaper and safer way to maximise their resources.
Boeing rivals like Lockheed Martin Corp and Kratos Defence and Security Solutions Inc are also investing in such aircraft.
Four to six of the new aircraft, called the Boeing Airpower Teaming System, can fly alongside a F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, said Shane Arnott, director of Boeing research and prototype arm Phantom Works International.
"To bring that extra component and the advantage of unmanned capability, you can accept a higher level of risk," he said. "It is better for one of these to take a hit than for a manned platform."
The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies in the United States said last year that the U.S. Air Force should explore pairing crewed and uncrewed aircraft to expand its fleet and complement a limited number of "exquisite, expensive, but highly potent fifth-generation aircraft" like the F-35.
"Human performance factors are a major driver behind current aerial combat practices," the policy paper said. "Humans can only pull a certain number of G's, fly for a certain number of hours, or process a certain amount of information at a given time."
MULTI-MISSION CAPABILITIES
In addition to performing like a fighter jet, other roles for the Boeing system include electronic warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance alongside aircraft like the P-8 Poseidon and E-7 Wedgetail, said Kristin Robertson, vice president and general manager of Boeing Autonomous Systems.
"It is operationally very flexible, modular, multi-mission," she said. "It is a very disruptive price point. Fighter-like capability at a fraction of the cost."
Robertson declined to comment on the cost, saying that it would depend on the configuration chosen by individual customers.
The jet is powered by a derivative of a commercially available engine, uses standard runways for take-off and landing, and can be modified for carrier operations at sea, Robertson said. She declined to specify whether it could reach supersonic speeds, common for modern fighter aircraft.
Its first flight is expected in 2020, with Boeing and the Australian government producing a concept demonstrator to pave the way for full production.
"I would say we are some years away from exports, we are probably years away from it being in operation here in Australia," Pyne said. "It is designed to be a cheaper platform, a shield if you like around the more expensive platforms, to protect our servicemen and women who might be on a Poseidon or a Wedgetail or a F-35A."
Australia, a staunch U.S. ally, is home to Boeing's largest footprint outside the United States and has vast airspace with relatively low traffic for flight testing.
The Boeing Airpower Teaming System will be manufactured in Australia, but production lines could be set up in other countries depending on sales, Arnott said.
The United States, which has the world's biggest military budget, would be among the natural customers for the product.
The U.S. Air Force 2030 project foresees the Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter working together with stealthy combat drones, called the "Loyal Wingman" concept, said Derrick Maple, principal analyst for unmanned systems at IHS Markit.
"The U.S. has more specific plans for the wingman concept, but Western Europe will likely develop their requirements in parallel, to abate the capabilities of China and the Russian Federation and other potential threats," he said.
Robertson declined to name potential customers and would not comment on potential stealth properties, but said the aircraft had the potential to sell globally.
"We didn't design this as a point solution but a very flexible solution that we could outfit with payloads, sensors, different mission sets to complement whatever their fleet is," she said. "Don't think of it as a specific product that is tailored to do only one mission."
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBL
Missing from all the politicking and economics is a discussion over which aircraft is actually better for Canada, which preferred the original CF-18 in part because it had two engines rather than single-engine planes such as the F-15, F-16 and French Mirage F-1 (the F-35 also has one engine). One consideration is that the RCAF has to patrol and protect a vast swathe of Arctic territory, a region rich in mineral resources and shipping routes that are coveted by multiple nations, including Russia and the United States.
I have read this thread a couple of times now and you make a heap of great points,...with some insider knowledge I might add.
But even your blog clearly alludes the program is a dogs breakfast and blames politics for the mess. It also clearly articulates the Economics which is the key enabler for the program, is one of the factors that the Trudeau Government is grappling with. Your alluding to economics vs capability, I am sorry, must be a mistake because the economics is the key enabler for the through-life of the capability (something the F35 is clearly the winner due to weight of numbers and the logistic effort being built around the aircraft).
But in all of that,...you have kinda missed the point. Politics is driving the F18 replacement program. Nothing more, nothing less. Not capability, not best bang for buck,...but simply politics. In particular the through-life spending revelations that gave the Trudeau Opposition the opportunity to bag the bejesus out of the program and the promise to cancel it,......no matter how many millions had already been spent, not to mention the gutting of the Canadian Industry that was involved in the program.
The cancelled Super Hornet was a political decision. The suggestion the RAAF F18 is the best thing for the RCAF is just simply difficult to comprehend and understand. And it was also a political decision to keep the fleet going and in decent shape, utilising 25 RAAF airframes. A fleet you yourself has stated has plenty of life in it. For what,..combat operations? Defence of the vast Canadian airspace? If the fleet was in such good nick,...why buy clapped out second hand F18s?
Is doesn't make sense,...unless you put your political nose to the ground and then it all makes sense.
The whole program reeks of politics and all the good work by you and your team is compromised because of it.
Capability is the second and third order priority for the Trudeau Government. That's as plain as day.
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Last edited by Light Fire Team; 03-01-2019 at 02:39 AM.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Fire Team
I have read this thread a couple of times now and you make a heap of great points,...with some insider knowledge I might add.
But even your blog clearly alludes the program is a dogs breakfast and blames politics for the mess. It also clearly articulates the Economics which is the key enabler for the program, is one of the factors that the Trudeau Government is grappling with. Your alluding to economics vs capability, I am sorry, must be a mistake because the economics is the key enabler for the through-life of the capability (something the F35 is clearly the winner due to weight of numbers and the logistic effort being built around the aircraft).
But in all of that,...you have kinda missed the point. Politics is driving the F18 replacement program. Nothing more, nothing less. Not capability, not best bang for buck,...but simply politics. In particular the through-life spending revelations that gave the Trudeau Opposition the opportunity to bag the bejesus out of the program and the promise to cancel it,......no matter how many millions had already been spent, not to mention the gutting of the Canadian Industry that was involved in the program.
The cancelled Super Hornet was a political decision. The suggestion the RAAF F18 is the best thing for the RCAF is just simply difficult to comprehend and understand. And it was also a political decision to keep the fleet going and in decent shape, utilising 25 RAAF airframes. A fleet you yourself has stated has plenty of life in it. For what,..combat operations? Defence of the vast Canadian airspace? If the fleet was in such good nick,...why buy clapped out second hand F18s?
Is doesn't make sense,...unless you put your political nose to the ground and then it all makes sense.
The whole program reeks of politics and all the good work by you and your team is compromised because of it.
Capability is the second and third order priority for the Trudeau Government. That's as plain as day.
I thank you and very much appreciate your valid comments/feedback on this thread! I totally agree with all your points about the current political situation here and how it has significantly 'influenced' our air force. It seems there are more pressing matters for our 'current' govt to take care of in the form of SNC and re-election impacts; rather than our aging military hardware for the skies. Fall can't come soon enough! Cheers! T7
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
I thank you and very much appreciate your valid comments/feedback on this thread! I totally agree with all your points about the current political situation here and how it has significantly 'influenced' our air force. It seems there are more pressing matters for our 'current' govt to take care of in the form of SNC and re-election impacts; rather than our aging military hardware for the skies. Fall can't come soon enough! Cheers! T7
Hey T7,...no problem. History tells us that airpower is a critical enabler for success. Those that compromise it for domestic political purposes tend to be a cropper if the balloon goes up.
Obviously, I am long way away,....but am I right in saying the Trudeau is in a spot of bother??
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Fire Team
Hey T7,...no problem. History tells us that airpower is a critical enabler for success. Those that compromise it for domestic political purposes tend to be a cropper if the balloon goes up.
Obviously, I am long way away,....but am I right in saying the Trudeau is in a spot of bother??
Yep, you are correct. All I can say is October 21, 2019 can't come soon enough! Cheers! T7
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canamwing
The F-35 is a disaster! The only reason it is back because Canada is an occupied country at the moment!
Yes, I've read many articles that the F-35 is a 'white elephant', and that there are better options available on the market. I see what you mean by your 'occupied' comment.
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
F-35 debate. I wonder if any of you have actually had a one on one with a guy flying the
F-35? Ever? I suspect not and although yes there are problems with this airplane there are problems with all the current types being flown out there in the world. I am not a fan of the airplane at all but I have had a number of discussions over the last few years with folks flying the bird at Nellis and Luke and it is not all bad news by any means.
As far as the RCAF next gen airplane they need to decide if Air Defense or Offense is the key.
The current "fix" of 3rd gen F-18s is pathetic ( my opinion only ).
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Update:
OTTAWA (Reuters) - Airbus SE and Boeing Co may pull out of a bidding process to supply Canada with new fighter jets because they say the contest is unfairly tilted toward Lockheed Martin Corp, two sources with direct knowledge of the situation said on Monday.
The three companies competing with Lockheed Martin's F-35 jet have already complained about the way the contest is being run, and expressed concern some of the specifications clearly favor the U.S. firm, industry sources have said in recent weeks.
Next week the government is due to release the so-called request for proposals - the final list of requirements - for the 88 new planes it wants to buy. The contract is worth between C$15 billion ($11.5 billion) and C$19 billion and the planes are due to be delivered between 2025 and the early 2030s.
Boeing and Airbus have now formally written to Ottawa expressing concerns about the current requirements, said two sources familiar with the matter who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the situation. The fourth bidder is Sweden's Saab AB.
Pat Finn, the defense ministry's top official in charge of procurement, confirmed one of the four companies had sent a formal letter but gave no details. The final request for proposals is due out on July 17 and modifications are still being considered, he said.
"We continue to engage all four of them," he said in a telephone interview. "We have had some comments (such as) 'If changes are not made in such a place then we would frankly consider possibly not bidding.'"
"We are looking at those very seriously. I can't say that we will make every change, but as far as we know we continue to have four bidders in the race."
Airbus declined to comment. Boeing did not respond to a request for comment.
Canada has been trying unsuccessfully for almost a decade to buy replacements for its aging F-18 fighters. In May, Ottawa changed the rules to allow Lockheed Martin to submit a bid, prompting Boeing to take the unusual step of announcing publicly it was surprised.
"Anyone who is not Lockheed Martin has expressed a very strong view," said one of the sources. "We have been pretty clear with the government that this is not a request for proposals that lends to our participation."
At least one firm has expressed unhappiness that the requirements emphasize the ability to carry out first strikes on targets abroad, a strength of the F-35, said the sources.
The government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau insists the competition is not rigged. Finn said the defense ministry also had made changes to the requirements at the request of Boeing, Airbus and Saab.
Canada is part of the international consortium that developed the F-35. The former Conservative administration said in 2010 it would buy 65 of the jets but later scrapped the decision, triggering years of delays.
Trudeau came to power in 2015 vowing not to buy the F-35 on the grounds that it was too costly, but Ottawa has since softened its line.
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OTTAWA – The federal government has announced the official request for proposals for Canada's 88 new fighter jets to replace the aging CF-18 fleet.
The requests for proposals have been sent to the four suppliers in the running for the $19-billion competition: Sweden's Saab Aeronautics, U.K.'s Airbus, and American companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin.
Bidders will have two opportunities to show they can meet the security and interoperability requirements, and will be receiving feedback from the government about any compliance issues. The security aspect of the pitches is due in fall 2019, with final proposals submitted by March 2020.
"The government will deliver the aircraft that meet Canada’s needs, while ensuring good value for Canadians," reads the news release from Public Services and Procurement Canada.
The estimated budget for this "once in a generation" procurement does not include the cost for sustainment, after bringing these aircraft into service.
According to the news release, the proposals will be assessed on technical merit, which will have a weighting of 60 per cent, cost with a weighting of 20 per cent, and economic benefits weighted at 20 per cent.
Bidders will have to provide a plan for economic benefits to Canada that are equal to the value of their proposed contract. The weighting of this aspect of the proposal has been increased by five points, with the maximum points going to the suppliers who offer contractual guarantees for this reinvestment in Canada.
Replacing the military's existing jets—purchased in the ‘80s—has been a work in progress for nearly a decade, with the previous Conservative government announcing in 2010 that it had selected the Lockheed Martin F-35s for a multi-billion dollar sole-source deal. Under that plan new jets were set to be delivered by 2016 but the deal erupted in political controversy over accusations the Tories misled Parliament about the true cost of the planes.
Then, during the 2015 federal election campaign, Justin Trudeau vowed that if the Liberals formed government they would not purchase the F-35s and would instead look for a cheaper option. Though just months later Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan signalled that the F-35 would not be excluded from the "open" fighter replacement competition.
The Liberals launched the procurement process to replace the fleet in 2017, with the planned timeline of having a contract awarded in early 2022, with the first aircrafts delivered in 2025. That timeline has been maintained in today’s request for tenders.
The Liberals first said they'd be purchasing 18 Boeing Super Hornets in the interim, before backing out of that agreement amid tensions between the U.S. aerospace giant and Canadian company Bombardier. In November 2018 the government settled on procuring 18 used F-18s and up to seven additional non-flyable aircrafts for parts and training, from Australia.
The initial draft tender for these 88 new jets was issued in October 2018 and suppliers provided the federal Liberals with their recommendations for the formal invitation to these major aerospace manufacturers to submit their proposals. Officials say that they received requests to, and made thousands of changes from the draft versions of the proposals issued today.
Meanwhile, Canada continues to pay what has amounted to more than $500 million to remain a partner in the F-35 development program over the last 20 years.
In the statement announcing this next step in the major military procurement, Public Services and Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough said it shows that the government is "delivering on its promise to replace Canada's fighter jet fleet through an open and transparent competition."
Though the opposition Conservatives were quick to criticize the amount of time it has taken to get to this point.
"It is inexcusable that Justin Trudeau spent the past four years dithering on the fighter jet file. Instead of rolling up his sleeves and procuring a new jet for our Royal Canadian Air Force, he decided to delay the selection of a new jet… Countries around the world have selected new fighter jets in under two years," said Conservative defence critic James Bezan.
Bezan, noting that the winning bid won’t be selected until after the next federal election, said that a Conservative government would "immediately select a new fighter jet through a fair and transparent competition."
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Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by T7_4ever
The requests for proposals have been sent to the four suppliers in the running for the $19-billion competition: Sweden's Saab Aeronautics, U.K.'s Airbus, and American companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin.
UK's Airbus are now out. SAAB is still considering it but there is a good chance they will be out too.
Apparently due to NORAD security and technology/intelligence sharing issues.
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty Hawk 1903
Could someone explain to me why we don't just buy "Super Hornets" and be done with it?
Ultimately the F35 has different technologies and a different way of fighting.
Secondly the scale of F35 buys will make the F35 more affordable in the long run from a sustainment point of view.
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
What an obscene disgrace. And even only half is true,....how can anyone even try to suggest this was a properly run program based on Canadian Defence needs in the Air Combat space??
I should point out Vice Admiral Mark Norman charges never went to court (even though Trudeau publicly said it would,...twice) and he was in fact had to be compensated by the Liberal Government.
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
Quote:
Originally Posted by HTF200
The F35 is a waste of money.
It does not even work properly.
And yet, the US (all three services), United Kingdom (RAF and RN), Australia, Israel, Turkey (subsequently now cancelled by the US), South Korea, Japan, Belgium, Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Singapore, Norway and Poland have or about to order the F35,...with plenty of other countries seriously considering it,..Canada and Spain for example.
That means the Defence Chiefs and leading defence thinkers of all those countries disagree with you.
The selling price for the F35 is near on par (cheaper than some like the Rafale) with all Western Fighters, bar the Gripen,....and continues to drop.
The aircraft orders are over 3000,...so economies of scale go into effect enabling an enormous logistic tail and efficiencies that no other fighter can hope to achieve.
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"The deliberately planned fighter sweep went just as we'd hoped. The MiGs came up. The MiGs were aggressive. We tangled. They lost." BRIG Robin Olds.
Last edited by Light Fire Team; 12-07-2019 at 07:47 PM.
OTTAWA — Canada’s protracted effort to buy 88 new fighter jets hit a new delay on Tuesday when the government granted potential bidders another three months to submit their proposals.
Canadian governments of various stripes have been trying for well over a decade to replace a fleet of aging Boeing Co CF-18 jets, some of which are more than 40 years old. Last July, Ottawa launched the competition for a contract it says will be worth between C$15 billion ($11.30 billion) and C$19 billion.
The deadline for the submission of preliminary proposals had been end-March. But the Liberal government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said that at the request of industry, the deadline had been pushed back to June 30 to give bidders more time to address security questions.
In December 2017, Canada announced it would buy a fleet of older Australian F-18 jets to help keep the air force operational until the new planes start arriving in 2025.
“Here we go again with more Liberal dithering and delaying because of Trudeau’s weak leadership. Meanwhile our air force is stuck with old rusted out fighters from Australia!” tweeted legislator James Bezan, who serves as the defense spokesman for the official opposition Conservatives.
The two main contenders are Lockheed Martin Corp and Boeing, while Sweden’s Saab AB is also taking part. Last August Airbus SE pulled out, partly due to what it cited as onerous security requirements.
Airbus and other contenders had complained the government appeared to be tilting the race in favor of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 plane, which the Royal Canadian Air Force wants. Canada is part of the consortium that developed the plane.
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Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian FA-18 fighter jets
T7 
Re: Canada moves toward buying 'used' Australian F
!
I could get into the specifics of what our govt considers priorities for $$$, but I would probably get 'banned' for my comments. 
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