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Old 05-25-2010, 07:26 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Originally Posted by Thomas32125 View Post


Madnish, post things that are proven from reliable sources and post the links to them!
It's just hilarious, how you try to defend yourself from suffering sarcasm or even fight for your 'right' to post at all!
Keep it up and post proven stuff in the future and we won't have to correct you in that way...
is there something wrong in being "wrong" and then being corrected ?
Did i say that the plane crashed in Africa and not mangalore, did i say it was a terror attack ?
I just got the reg# and the airport runway fact wrong come on !
leave it now..
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:02 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Originally Posted by madnish30 View Post
Dude did i ever say i'm anybodies spokesperson ?
did i say that i'm from DGCA ? or did i tell you that i'm 100% correct... i can be wrong i'm not at the place enither do i own the DGCA i myself saw things on new mediums...
And i really don't care about what Dylan said trust me.



Yes you are correct you can't shut me with your sarcasm.
You are free to share your opinion just as you can't shut me, i won't even be stupid to try and shut you for no reason go on saying what you want..
And thee sheer ammount of wrong info !
maybe you should come here and see the news channels and then maybe you will get to know who was posting wrong info, the wrong info i posted was only that the new runway was opened ( where as new terminal was opened ) and the reg # of the aircraft involved ( i saw that reg # in the other thread so i assumed that would be correct ! )

Regarding number of survivors : stil nobody knows the exact numbers i gave a range not a definite number.
Regarding the rain during landing, still there are many conflicting reports its your choice to believe which ever you want.....
And as far as the rest goes there is nothing wrong inthinking about what could have gone wrong if you don't like such posts unsubscribe this thread.
thats all i have to say to you and your huge fan base on this site.

And BTW thanks for the free publicity on your sig.
that does not offend me at all, if thats what you are trying to do, Dylan.

take care.
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is there something wrong in being "wrong" and then being corrected ?
Did i say that the plane crashed in Africa and not mangalore, did i say it was a terror attack ?
I just got the reg# and the airport runway fact wrong come on !
leave it now..
Stay on topic please. This is a thread to discuss the crash of IX. Thank you.
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:20 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Stay on topic please. This is a thread to discuss the crash of IX. Thank you.

Sure. Thats better:


Three days after the Mangalore air tragedy, CNN-IBN takes a glimpse into what happened seconds before the crash. Exclusive details of the last conversation between the pilot and the Air Traffic Control suggest there was absolute calm right before the disaster struck.

ATC: confirm establish on ILSIX 812 Commander: establish on ILS
ATC: Report 5 DME
IX 812 Commander: Roger 5 DME
ATC: Express India 812 cleared to land runway 24... wind calm
IX 812 Commander: Roger, cleared to land
ATC: Express India 812 landed 0032... backtrack at the end of runway... vacate runway via taxiway delta and (no acknowledgment from the pilot... silence used radio chatter).
The commander goes silent for ever. ATC just sees smoke at the end of the runway. This was one of the worst aviation disasters.
The last communication between IX 812 and ATC suggests there was nothing amiss in the standard parameters and conditions for landing to the extent that the ATC didn't even realise it had crashed or violated Standard Operating Procedure.




Souce: Indian news web site.




The Black Box of ill fated Air India Express IX 812 that crashed claiming lives of 158 passengers on May 22, near Mangalore International Airport was found today.

The investigating team of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) found the vital Digital Flight Data Recorder (Black Box) in the midst of completely burnt aircraft.

The team has already recovered Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the aircraft and Digital Flight Data Acquisition Unit (DFDAU) from the site.





Souce: An Indian Daily ( Black Box of IX 812 found)









Pilots of the ill-fated Air India Express IX 812 possibly made one last attempt to fly back to safety after realising that they had overshot the runway and would not be able to stop in the available length.

But unfortunately for the 158 passengers who perished in the crash, including the crew of six, the Boeing 737-800 was simply too fast to stop in time and not left with enough length to lift off again. TOI had mentioned this as one of the possible reasons for the crash on Sunday.

Highly placed sources said the thrust lever of the plane was at full, which indicates that the plane was trying to take off. Apparently, when the lever was suddenly pushed to full, a tyre burst under pressure. This is what caused the plane to swerve and hit the localiser.

Highly placed sources hinted at this strong possibility after examining the crash site and aircraft wreckage in Mangalore.

From initial observations, it seems that the aircraft was making a soft landing and overshot the touchdown point by hundreds of feet as it glided over the runway.

After touching down, the pilots — being aware of Mangalore airstrip and the valley ahead — must have realised that they could not stop in time.

They could have possibly tried to lift off again but even that could not happen due to short space left to do so. They and the wing hitting localiser equipment structure near the runway, said sources.

A Boeing 737-800 can stop in 4,500-5,000 feet. The Mangalore runway is 8,000 feet long and even if the pilots had overshot the touchdown point by 2,000 feet, there was enough length left to stop. So very initial observations hint at the pilots attempting to take off again, said sources. The impression also comes from the massive damage inflicted on the wing that hit the localiser.

This wing and its engine separated from the main aircraft body instantly.

The other engine also got seconds later separated from the other wing and was found quite far away, indicating that it was having substantial power.

Meanwhile, aviation minister Praful Patel said the cause of the accident will be known only after the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) concludes its probe. "The probe will show what went wrong. I cannot pre-judge the probe finding. If some corrective steps are needed, they'll be taken and if someone is found responsible for the mishap, we'll take action," he said.

What's intriguing authorities is that the runway has been used for years without any problem and that the aircraft — just 2.5 years old was being piloted by experienced pilots. A runway's friction coefficient has to be between 0.5 and 0.8.

The Airports Authority of India's last test had found a coefficient of 0.65 for Mangalore's new runway.





Source : Times Of India ( excerpts )




Now that FDR and CVR have been found and some US officials have arrived we can hope for some leads...
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:36 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

Interesting developments! Another website is reporting that IX mgmt are trying to discourage hard landings: 1st one you get a talking to, 2nd one you get retraining, and 3rd one your out of a job. This is unsubstantiated of course, do any of our pro's on here have any more info on this?




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with one of the strictest flying rules by DGCA, stricter than FAA in some areas.
I believe a statement like this needs to be backed up. Madnish, please post some hard fact substantiating the above claim, I am curious to see where the FAA is lacking.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:50 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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I believe a statement like this needs to be backed up. Madnish, please post some hard fact substantiating the above claim, I am curious to see where the FAA is lacking.

Did not say FAA is lacking, will back it up i need to find "soucrces" to support my claims some people fancy fiction too much to believe the truth.


On the other hand AI has issued a GAG to all its members, refraining them to talk to any media and disclose anything about the working of the airlines.
There were few more reports in a Daily claiming that Air India regularly flots saftey norms, but again speculation.
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Old 05-25-2010, 04:12 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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On the other hand AI has issued a GAG to all its members, refraining them to talk to any media and disclose anything about the working of the airlines.
The gag notice was issued because when the Air India Express flight crashed, one of the new Air India A320 was sent with the Disaster Management Team to Mangalore.

Afterwards, the flight was cleared for departure back to BOM by a Kingfisher engineer who was not certified to clear the flight, since Kingfisher has V2500 engines and AI has CFM-56 engines on the new A320's. The AI Engineers were unavailable at that time to clear the flight for departure. The reason I haven’t been able to find yet.

To this, the AI engineers raised the issue as to why the aircraft was cleared by an Kingfisher engineer when he wasn't certified to do it. And they asked the management whether they wanted another Mangalore like incident to take place by allowing an uncertified engineer to clear the aircraft for departure? Some of the Engineers even spoke to the media about it.

Since the engineers talked to the media about how the management had breached the rules, the CMD ordered termination orders for these engineers, and hence the whole Air India Engineering Association and ACEU went on a flash strike today. The HT Article below clearly mention that the strike took place due to the controversial circular issued last evening which prohibits employees from giving any public statements. This was issued so that this goof up by the management could be prevented from leaking into the media.

The strike for deferring salary payments was supposed to take place on May 31. But with this incident happening, the employees went on a flash strike today putting forward all their demands simultaneously.


- Hindustan Times
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:11 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Originally Posted by DELAPPROACH View Post
The gag notice was issued because when the Air India Express flight crashed, one of the new Air India A320 was sent with the Disaster Management Team to Mangalore.

Afterwards, the flight was cleared for departure back to BOM by a Kingfisher engineer who was not certified to clear the flight, since Kingfisher has V2500 engines and AI has CFM-56 engines on the new A320's. The AI Engineers were unavailable at that time to clear the flight for departure. The reason I haven’t been able to find yet.

To this, the AI engineers raised the issue as to why the aircraft was cleared by an Kingfisher engineer when he wasn't certified to do it. And they asked the management whether they wanted another Mangalore like incident to take place by allowing an uncertified engineer to clear the aircraft for departure? Some of the Engineers even spoke to the media about it.

Since the engineers talked to the media about how the management had breached the rules, the CMD ordered termination orders for these engineers, and hence the whole Air India Engineering Association and ACEU went on a flash strike today. The HT Article below clearly mention that the strike took place due to the controversial circular issued last evening which prohibits employees from giving any public statements. This was issued so that this goof up by the management could be prevented from leaking into the media.

The strike for deferring salary payments was supposed to take place on May 31. But with this incident happening, the employees went on a flash strike today putting forward all their demands simultaneously.


- Hindustan Times
It would be interesting to find out what happens to the Kingfisher Engineer who cleared the aircraft for flight. One of the tenants of being an Engineer in the aviation industry (indeed in any industry) is to know your limitations. He should have had the integrity to declare that he wasn't certified to clear the flight. It is he (or she) that places the lives of those on the aircraft at risk.

Also, even though the it happened to be the Disaster Management Team travelling on this aircraft do you seriously expect them to check (or be aware of) the certification status of the guy clearing their A320?
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Old 05-25-2010, 10:51 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Originally Posted by DELAPPROACH View Post
The gag notice was issued because when the Air India Express flight crashed, one of the new Air India A320 was sent with the Disaster Management Team to Mangalore.

Afterwards, the flight was cleared for departure back to BOM by a Kingfisher engineer who was not certified to clear the flight, since Kingfisher has V2500 engines and AI has CFM-56 engines on the new A320's. The AI Engineers were unavailable at that time to clear the flight for departure. The reason I haven’t been able to find yet.

To this, the AI engineers raised the issue as to why the aircraft was cleared by an Kingfisher engineer when he wasn't certified to do it. And they asked the management whether they wanted another Mangalore like incident to take place by allowing an uncertified engineer to clear the aircraft for departure? Some of the Engineers even spoke to the media about it.

Since the engineers talked to the media about how the management had breached the rules, the CMD ordered termination orders for these engineers, and hence the whole Air India Engineering Association and ACEU went on a flash strike today. The HT Article below clearly mention that the strike took place due to the controversial circular issued last evening which prohibits employees from giving any public statements. This was issued so that this goof up by the management could be prevented from leaking into the media.

The strike for deferring salary payments was supposed to take place on May 31. But with this incident happening, the employees went on a flash strike today putting forward all their demands simultaneously.


- Hindustan Times

Thanks for the details of the story,
the report in the newspaper today mornning says that around 50-60 international and domestic flights are to be affected, passengers to suffer.
May the situation get better soon.
AI is already in huge losses.

SOUCE : Hindustan Times.

long live the Maharaja.
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Old 05-26-2010, 04:57 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Also, even though the it happened to be the Disaster Management Team travelling on this aircraft do you seriously expect them to check (or be aware of) the certification status of the guy clearing their A320?
The Disaster Management team got down at Mangalore Airport. The ferry flight back to BOM was cleared by the Kingfisher Engineer.
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:11 AM   #60 (permalink)
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The Disaster Management team got down at Mangalore Airport. The ferry flight back to BOM was cleared by the Kingfisher Engineer.
So the Disaster Management Team weren't on the ferry flight back to base. This doesn't change the fact that the responsibility in this case rests with the Kingfisher Engineer who released an aircraft that he wasn't certified to release.

I am now a little confused as to whether Management knew he was not certified before or after the ferry flight had taken place.
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:21 AM   #61 (permalink)
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So the Disaster Management Team weren't on the ferry flight back to base. This doesn't change the fact that the responsibility in this case rests with the Kingfisher Engineer who released an aircraft that he wasn't certified to release.

I am now a little confused as to whether Management knew he was not certified before or after the ferry flight had taken place.
Yes, the aircraft was sent back to BOM after the team was dropped at Mangalore.

Whether the management knew about it or not, but they should've consulted someone from their own Engineering Department before asking an employee of another company to clear the aircraft.

To make matter worse, they terminated their own engineers who raised their voice against this goof up by the management. Consequently, all AI domestic flights are cancelled today!
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Old 05-27-2010, 07:43 AM   #62 (permalink)
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...Whether the management knew about it or not, but they should've consulted someone from their own Engineering Department before asking an employee of another company to clear the aircraft....
Who is the 'they' that you refer to here. If management didn't know about it, then they wouldn't have consulted anyone. I'm not trying to be difficult, I imagine that having aircraft cleared by other airlines is pretty common practice; and it is probably organised at a lower level than management.
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Old 05-27-2010, 08:20 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

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Who is the 'they' that you refer to here. If management didn't know about it, then they wouldn't have consulted anyone. I'm not trying to be difficult, I imagine that having aircraft cleared by other airlines is pretty common practice; and it is probably organised at a lower level than management.
"They" was used to refer to the management.

It might be a common practice but it must be ensured that the engineers clearing the flight are certified to do it. We at this time, don't know whether the management knew that the Kingfisher Engineer wasn't certified to clear the aircraft. As you already said, the main blame goes to the kingfisher engineer who should've refused to clear the aircraft in the first place.
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Old 05-29-2010, 02:14 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Breaking: Air india boeing 737-800 crash

Read Today that the CVR will be sent to NTSB labs in the US.
DGCA is working on the formalities and paper works, will be a "kind" of joint investigation.
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