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Old 03-16-2016, 07:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s - WSJ
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

I am not that surprised by this decision from Air France. There are only a few airlines in the world who can effectively operate a decent-sized A380 fleet. On top of that, there are only a handful of routes that exist that can generate any realistic levels of profit from the use of an A380. I don't believe we will ever see Airbus produce a 1000 copies of the A380.
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Old 03-17-2016, 10:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

Something tells me that we will probably never see a N.American airline pick up an A380 in the future? United/American/Delta/Air Canada (all waiting for the B777x).
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

Boeing had it right - well, at least partially. They said there wasn't a market to support the A380 but then they did go ahead and make the 747-8. So, go figure.

I think Airbus' biggest problem right now is that they just don't know how to cut their losses. It's a loser. It's an engineering marvel but it's a sales loser. It's not on the same level as the Concorde but it's the same thing. Yes, the Concorde was an amazing achievement, especially considering the time period. However, it wasn't profitable.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:45 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

Any bets on the over/under on the life expectancy of the A380? Anybody think it will surpass the B747 years in service?
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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Any bets on the over/under on the life expectancy of the A380? Anybody think it will surpass the B747 years in service?
The 747 has had 46 years. Let's say the -8's make it 15. No way for the A380.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

The way Emirates are progressing with the A380 and the financial backing they have from their Sheikh, I think they have quite the Middle and Central Asia covered with ease and connected Almost all of the world..

In my honest Opinion Except Lufthansa and Singapore, not many airlines may be able to exploit the likes of A380 to the Max..

We can only expect many airlines to have only 0-20 planes in their operations and not more than that in the near future and those too only for their main Routes..
because let's be fair, oil prices will not be cheap forever and it will increase..

What would the airlines do then !?
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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The 747 has had 46 years. Let's say the -8's make it 15. No way for the A380.
Long live the Queen of the Skies! Yeah, hoping the 747-8 can keep the B747 years in service going for another 15+ !
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:29 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

The 747 entered service on January 1970 ; when the airlines truly needed a Jumbo Jet with 4 engines to usher in global travel for the masses at a fair cost.

The 380 entered service on October 2007 ; when the airlines were shying away from 4 engines, due to the rising fuel prices at that time.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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Originally Posted by arctic9048 View Post
Boeing had it right - well, at least partially. They said there wasn't a market to support the A380 but then they did go ahead and make the 747-8. So, go figure.

I think Airbus' biggest problem right now is that they just don't know how to cut their losses. It's a loser. It's an engineering marvel but it's a sales loser. It's not on the same level as the Concorde but it's the same thing. Yes, the Concorde was an amazing achievement, especially considering the time period. However, it wasn't profitable.
The real loser is your comment throwing many things inside to make a ridiculous statement.. Did Airbus misinterpret the size of the VLA aircraft market? Sure they did, but they broke even with the A388ceo. Just look up how many they sold compared to the B748l. Airbus now doesn't want to invest into an A388neo as only EK is the only one pushing for it, instead they'll attack Boeings 779 with the A350-1100 and will decide later to continue with an A388neo or not.. Comparing the A380 to the Concorde sale wise is nothing but.. Keep on writing the A380 down fanboy - Fly in one and you'll see that this aircraft is a winner in many cases..
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:54 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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- Fly in one and you'll see that this aircraft is a winner in many cases..
I've flown on a Emirates A380 and I will agree it's a very pleasant experience in Econo (food/comfort/service/IFE). Thought it would be a challenging flight, due to our 9month old daughter at the time. But, she didn't cry/scream at all during the 13+hr flight! I'm guessing the plane had something to do with it!
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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Originally Posted by LH B747-430 View Post
The real loser is your comment throwing many things inside to make a ridiculous statement.. Did Airbus misinterpret the size of the VLA aircraft market? Sure they did, but they broke even with the A388ceo. Just look up how many they sold compared to the B748l. Airbus now doesn't want to invest into an A388neo as only EK is the only one pushing for it, instead they'll attack Boeings 779 with the A350-1100 and will decide later to continue with an A388neo or not.. Comparing the A380 to the Concorde sale wise is nothing but.. Keep on writing the A380 down fanboy - Fly in one and you'll see that this aircraft is a winner in many cases..
So you want to compare the sales of one loser to the sales of another loser and call it a victory? They broke even with the A380? I think they are still short of doing that but okay. Either way, breaking even after nearly a decade is considered an achievement?

Ok...if you say so.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

I don't think you can propose a relationship between this news and pointing that towards the demise of VLAs. Air France shouldn't have ordered the aircraft in the first place and are simply making a business decision. They will continue to optimize the A388 for their current route network, they aren't dumping their current frames yet.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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I don't think you can propose a relationship between this news and pointing that towards the demise of VLAs. Air France shouldn't have ordered the aircraft in the first place and are simply making a business decision. They will continue to optimize the A388 for their current route network, they aren't dumping their current frames yet.
That would be sad to see the A380 being dropped from service, I enjoyed flying this behemoth and would do so again. I tell people to try and fly on this superwhale once if their travel plans align with the airlines that fly this beast. She's a sweet ride and after being on it for 13+ hours, I felt pretty good and relaxed getting off the plane; meaning it didn't feel like I had flown for 13+ hours = which is a Bonus in my book.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

FWIW I don't believe the 787 broke even yet either; it probably will some day, but may take longer than anticipated due to being squeezed from an unforeseen competitor at time of its launch (namely A330NEO). Of course it couldn't be considered a "loser" or poor decision; some aircraft will be seen to be more successful not necessarily because of their capabilities alone but also due to timing, competing designs and market idiosyncracies among other things. A380 (like 748 and A340) appears to be more a victim of timing than anything. It's a tribute to all who had a hand in bringing it to reality, being the largest airliner ever to enter service (so far anyway). Don't understand all the animosity directed toward this aircraft.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

Given the choice to fly overseas (12+ hr flight) on a B777, B747-8 or an A380. I am going to jump on the A380. For some reason it feels like a bloody cruise ship in the skies with it's high vaulted ceilings and 90 degree walls on the main deck. Very open, spacious and bright! Cheers! T7 (Yep, I've flown on several B777 birds and 1 A380 and 1 B747-8 so far)
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

I don't have any animosity towards the A380. However, it is a sales loser just like the 747-8. So is the 737-600 and A318.
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:27 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

British Airways seems to be happy with their A380s- although they aren't going to purchase more of them because they don't want to make any more large capital expenditures. They've said they're in the market for used ones, but no one is giving up any yet.
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Old 03-22-2016, 04:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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I don't have any animosity towards the A380. However, it is a sales loser just like the 747-8. So is the 737-600 and A318.
Are you sure you do, because the numbers support that you simply do..
B748I: 36
B736: 69

A318: 80
A388: 331 orders

The Boeing 747 received 315 orders in the first decade after its launch without any competition and planes available like a B77W. So you call the whole B747 program a sales loser as well and you are comparing a narrowbody subvariant of the strongest aircraft programs in history sales-wise to the A380.. Apples and..!? Now you may get why i said that the only real loser is your statement here that show that it's pure animosity driving you here.. The industry is a bit more complex and one variant doesn't stand for a whole program and there are many synergies and r&d fields that are important for a manufacturer as well, but keep on ignoring it, I don't care, as argueing against an emotion is useless..
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

It seems as if there's a U.S. pro Boeing anti Airbus argument going on here
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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Are you sure you do, because the numbers support that you simply do..
B748I: 36
B736: 69

A318: 80
A388: 331 orders

The Boeing 747 received 315 orders in the first decade after its launch without any competition and planes available like a B77W. So you call the whole B747 program a sales loser as well and you are comparing a narrowbody subvariant of the strongest aircraft programs in history sales-wise to the A380.. Apples and..!? Now you may get why i said that the only real loser is your statement here that show that it's pure animosity driving you here.. The industry is a bit more complex and one variant doesn't stand for a whole program and there are many synergies and r&d fields that are important for a manufacturer as well, but keep on ignoring it, I don't care, as argueing against an emotion is useless..
You seem to think that breaking even is the goal. Maybe you should raise your standards. You're the one getting butt hurt on this forum. It's s loser. Is it making money? Has it even broken even as you say it has? Are they selling more?

Oh but the synergies...
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:13 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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You seem to think that breaking even is the goal. Maybe you should raise your standards. You're the one getting butt hurt on this forum. It's s loser. Is it making money? Has it even broken even as you say it has? Are they selling more?

Oh but the synergies...
How good it must feel just to throw emotional opinions in here, then sales numbers without even knowing them and just leaning back and firing out crap after.. Look at the numbers, Airbus sold 12 A380 this year, it's Q1.. Anyway - feel free to look the rest up by yourself..
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:37 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

no matter what airbus does the a380 will be a sales looser too many seats for too few passengers
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:39 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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How good it must feel just to throw emotional opinions in here, then sales numbers without even knowing them and just leaning back and firing out crap after.. Look at the numbers, Airbus sold 12 A380 this year, it's Q1.. Anyway - feel free to look the rest up by yourself..
The only one who is emotional is you. It is a sales loser. Those are what the numbers say. Your whole signature is a size comparison. Congratulations. The A380 is bigger. It's still a sales loser. Not as much of a loser as the 747-8 but a loser nonetheless. Go ahead and respond with more emoticons telling me how I'm the emotional one.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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The only one who is emotional is you. It is a sales loser. Those are what the numbers say. Your whole signature is a size comparison. Congratulations. The A380 is bigger. It's still a sales loser. Not as much of a loser as the 747-8 but a loser nonetheless. Go ahead and respond with more emoticons telling me how I'm the emotional one.
Not at all, but you seem to know everything better, good for you.. It's intersting that you just keep on repeating your statement intead of starting to discuss - I filled your talk with the fitting numbers that are surely never emotional. The 747 didn't sell better in its history compared to its entry - you related to A318 or B736.. Whatwever you say, it won't change the fact that they sold over 300 copies in the past years. Anyway, keep on riding your dead horse telling it's a sales loser, I couldn't care less about your answer.. I'm out of here and your bs..
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

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Not at all, but you seem to know everything better, good for you.. It's intersting that you just keep on repeating your statement intead of starting to discuss - I filled your talk with the fitting numbers that are surely never emotional. The 747 didn't sell better in its history compared to its entry - you related to A318 or B736.. Whatwever you say, it won't change the fact that they sold over 300 copies in the past years. Anyway, keep on riding your dead horse telling it's a sales loser, I couldn't care less about your answer.. I'm out of here and your bs..
You're right. I must be an idiot along with everyone else.

“While Airbus may produce A380s this year which cost the same to sell them, the programme sports the worst financial balance in aviation history. Airbus has been selling this thing since 2000 to customers with delirious discounts to secure orders,” he said. “That sort of discipline is never going to make the A380 break even on a total programme cost basis, let alone ever be profitable.” Others say that the A380 programme might break even once Airbus has sold round 450 jets.
But Mr Ahmad says that may never happen: “It’s already looking technologically obsolete versus Boeing’s 787 and 777X jets and even Airbus’s own A350XWB. Mr Bregier had no choice but to speak up for the A380 – not doing so would spook investors and airlines even more.”

Is Airbus's A380 a 'superjumbo' with a future or an aerospace white elephant? - Telegraph

Ten Years of the Airbus A380, but Demand Remains Soft - WSJ

Slowing Demand Leaves Airbus With Challenge To Break-Even On A380 Program In 2015 | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Airbus's Big Plane Has a Small (Order) Problem - Bloomberg Business

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Old 03-27-2016, 08:15 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Air France-KLM Drops Order for Two Airbus A380s

AF doesn't really even need the 779, I'd imagine the largest aircraft they will operate post A380 will be the A350-1000. Their route network doesn't really support an increase in capacity and a high density A350 can match the capacity of their current 77W fleet. They aren't a very cargo dependent carrier either in the underbelly on pax flights so they won't miss the added 779 cargo capacity either. I would love to see AF operate 779s and they still might, however I think the A350 is more likely.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:12 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Would arctic9048 and lh b747-430 quit arguing
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