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Old 11-04-2015, 09:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

Interesting response from Boeing. Let's see if Airbus will jump in? Cheers! T7

DUBAI (Reuters) - Boeing will not make changes to the stretched version of its Dreamliner aircraft despite major client Emirates' [EMIRA.UL] request for better performance in hot climates, a company executive said on Wednesday.

"The plan is not to change the aircraft, we really like what we have," Randy Tinseth, vice president of marketing at Boeing Commercial Airplanes, told reporters in Dubai when asked about possible developments of the aircraft for Emirates.

Emirates, the largest Boeing 777 operator, said last month it would defer to next year a decision on whether to place an order for nearly 100 long-range planes with either Boeing for its 787-10 or with Airbus for A350-900s.

The two manufacturers were previously said to be working on their respective models to suit Emirates’ requirements.

The airline's president, Tim Clark, raised doubts about the 787-10's ability to carry heavy passenger and cargo loads for distances beyond eight hours due to the performance in hot climates - an issue for a Gulf-based airline.

However, he also said 85 percent of Emirates' flights did not exceed eight hours. This could mean better prospects for Airbus' A350, which has a flying range of about 14 hours.

Tinseth said the 787-10 will be the "most efficient airplane" that Boeing has ever built when it comes into service.

The 787-10, launched at the 2013 Paris Airshow, has an order book of 146, according to the manufacturer's website. The first delivery is expected in 2018.

Meanwhile, the A350-900 has confirmed orders for 598 aircraft with six in operation.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

An EK order would be an excellent addition to the 787-10s order book, however it doesn't need it. The aircraft will be a success regardless of if EK sign up and it's not worth Boeing's resources to alter a specs that work for it's other customers. I expect that EK will likely still order it as Airbus doesn't really offer anything that works any better in high & hot destinations.
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Old 11-05-2015, 04:36 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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An EK order would be an excellent addition to the 787-10s order book, however it doesn't need it. The aircraft will be a success regardless of if EK sign up and it's not worth Boeing's resources to alter a specs that work for it's other customers. I expect that EK will likely still order it as Airbus doesn't really offer anything that works any better in high & hot destinations.
Have you ever thought about the fact why EK is so crazy about the B77W? Because the extra TOW makes it work better in their environment.. Without EK, the B77W would also be a success, but EK is by far (with 108 active, 44 on order plus 20 further options) the largest Boeing customer in history. That's 152 firm frames, plus 150 B77X on firm order. Out of 5 B77W leaving Everett, 1 is in EK colors!! Boeing is ultra dependent on EK just like Airbus' A380 program. Imagine they wouldn't take all the B77W - the T7 line would never be full untill the B77X is ready to line up and this means jobs in the US!!

Airbus has taken this up with the A350-900ULH that was announced weeks ago and they can offer EK now an upgraded variant for their needs. I don't think that Boeing should bite into the hand that feeds it. There has to be a 787-10HGW or 787-10LR as the 787-10 - order-wise - doesn't seem to get that much interest from airlines especially from Asia and the Gulf states.

The 787-10 has a problem as the B787-8 and 787-9 have been long needed replacements for aged 767/A340s, but the 787-10 that is larger than a B772 has way more competition to face: cheap and well maintained T7 that are much younger than the B767 are available, the A359 that is already available, A333 that is available in a new MTOW variant plus the neo.. I can't understand why Boeing thinks that there is no need to give a potential customer several options for their fleets!?
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought it was the engine manufacturers that provide the extra performance needed to fly in hot conditions (hot conditions equals less thrust). Boeing (and Airbus) merely supply something to hang those engines on.
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Old 11-05-2015, 01:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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Excuse my ignorance, but I thought it was the engine manufacturers that provide the extra performance needed to fly in hot conditions (hot conditions equals less thrust). Boeing (and Airbus) merely supply something to hang those engines on.
You are correct, Test_777 Cheers! T7

Please read this article:

Big order pending, Emirates has issues with Boeing’s 787-10 | The Seattle Times
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Old 11-06-2015, 12:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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Excuse my ignorance, but I thought it was the engine manufacturers that provide the extra performance needed to fly in hot conditions (hot conditions equals less thrust). Boeing (and Airbus) merely supply something to hang those engines on.
No, its a supply and demand game.. The airlines want an aircraft with more MTOW, the manufacturer gives it a go and appraches the engine manufacturers and they make proposals - the aircraft manufacturer selects available engines that fit their product best..

Your way GE would have driven Boeing to make an B77L!? Very interesting thought?!? Boeing developed the -300ER alongside the -200LR as extended models of the existing line-up to fight against the A340-600 and the A340-500 range and TOW-wise. Not only the engines have been changed as you might know. The B77W/B77L feature raked wingtips, redesigned main landing gear, additional structural strengthening and three optional auxiliary fuel tanks in the rear cargo hold. Engine manufacturers provide a part of an MTOW optimized aircraft, so no - it's not that simple.. Something similar would be needed to get an B787-10HGW..

This will be a huge order - up to 100 widebodies - I can't see why Boeing should be so dumb not to develop such a version which could get even more orders from the Middle East in the future..
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

Well EK should not expect a major manufacturer to change an already good thing simply because they want it their way. While Boeing may be highly dependent on EK as a customer, EK is equally dependent on Boeing for their 777's. They should have thought twice before cancelling their A350 orders.



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Old 11-07-2015, 10:27 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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Well EK should not expect a major manufacturer to change an already good thing simply because they want it their way. While Boeing may be highly dependent on EK as a customer, EK is equally dependent on Boeing for their 777's. They should have thought twice before cancelling their A350 orders.
I hear ya Moin. I guess when EK were having their board meeting about changes to the B787-10, nobody raised their hand to ask 1 simple question to Mr.Clark = 'What happens if Boeing says no to our B787-10 changes? Do we have a Plan B?'
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Old 11-07-2015, 05:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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I hear ya Moin. I guess when EK were having their board meeting about changes to the B787-10, nobody raised their hand to ask 1 simple question to Mr.Clark = 'What happens if Boeing says no to our B787-10 changes? Do we have a Plan B?'
Simple answer: Yes, we have! It's called A350 and if Boeing doesn't need our money, we'll send it to Airbus!
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Old 11-07-2015, 08:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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Simple answer: Yes, we have! It's called A350 and if Boeing doesn't need our money, we'll send it to Airbus!
True. I wonder if EK will be knocking on the Airbus door? Hello, remember that cancellation order of 70 A350s from us? Hmm. We would like to 'cancel' our 'cancel' order on those A350s!

Emirates Cancels Airbus A350 Order | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week

Airbus and Emirates Airline agree to cancel A350 XWB order*| Airbus Press release
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

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True. I wonder if EK will be knocking on the Airbus door? Hello, remember that cancellation order of 70 A350s from us? Hmm. We would like to 'cancel' our 'cancel' order on those A350s!

Emirates Cancels Airbus A350 Order | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week

Airbus and Emirates Airline agree to cancel A350 XWB order*| Airbus Press release
That cancellation was a slap into Airbus' face and a PR disaster for their program despite the additional A380 order! Even more strange to me that Boeing sees no need to steal the entire deal!? On Bloomberg, Tim Clark is quoted today that he wants to look into the data of the flying A350s - he reacts to Boeing by not mentioning the 787 anymore - that's part of his game I guess.. Clark once had slots for 2019 for 50 A359 and 20 A35K - it will make Bregier's day to tell him his new slots in case he should be interested again..

Now it's time to lean back and grab some popcorn..
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Boeing says NO to Emirates for changes to Dreamliner B787-10

I'm expecting EK will likely order 7810s, but they are likely studying the A350 for those missions where the 7810 can't operate at max payload due to the hot/high conditions out of DXB.
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