Happy Victory Day!

A Tupolev · 05-09-2007, 02:21 AM

To all my friends in Russia I wish you a happy Victory Day! A toast (any excuse for a shot of vodka) to the defeat of fascism and the great patriotic war! May those that died to defeat the facist RIP!

gospodin · 05-09-2007, 07:40 AM

Those were some unhappy times in Russia. Nazi's burning villages, bombing cities, commiting genocide on the Russian people...and the Stalinist purges going on at the same time. May Russia's future be brighter, and her people never see those times return.

ARIUS · 05-09-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

Those were some unhappy times in Russia. Nazi's burning villages, bombing cities, commiting genocide on the Russian people...and the Stalinist purges going on at the same time. May Russia's future be brighter, and her people never see those times return.

Russia's future may never get brighter unless its citizens and government come to terms and acknowledge its soviet past. What the soviets did to their own citizens is shocking. Russia has a history of sweeping this kind of history under the carpet and not speaking about it which is the same as tacitly approving what went on. Mr Putin's government is following the slippery slope of an authoritarian regime by controlling the media and not tolerating dissent.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-10-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

Those were some unhappy times in Russia. Nazi's burning villages, bombing cities, commiting genocide on the Russian people...

Yes, but the Sovjet Union returned those favours back to the German people with some extra's on top of it.

gospodin · 05-10-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Clipper Spirit

Yes, but the Sovjet Union returned those favours back to the German people with some extra's on top of it.

It's not as if Germany didn't ask for it. Seeing the atrocities commited by the Germans, and pumped-up with righteous Soviet propaganda, it's not too surprising the Russian troops acted as barbaric as their would-be conquerors. We didn't have a lot of restraint after 9/11...but then, if we didn't react the way we did, the Muslim radicals would have done something worse.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-11-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

It's not as if Germany didn't ask for it. Seeing the atrocities commited by the Germans, and pumped-up with righteous Soviet propaganda, it's not too surprising the Russian troops acted as barbaric as their would-be conquerors. We didn't have a lot of restraint after 9/11...but then, if we didn't react the way we did, the Muslim radicals would have done something worse.

Learn some history before you make such disturbing comments. (I don't mean that in a rude or offensive way!) My family has German roots and I know the stories of that period from first hand. For comparissing: just the victims of the Wilhem Gustloff are three time the victims of 9/11. More than two thirds of them were civilian... That was just one ship with refugees, I am not talking about all the villages which were raped and murdered when the Russians "liberated" the German people.

gospodin · 05-11-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Clipper Spirit

Learn some history before you make such disturbing comments. (I don't mean that in a rude or offensive way!) My family has German roots and I know the stories of that period from first hand. For comparissing: just the victims of the Wilhem Gustloff are three time the victims of 9/11. More than two thirds of them were civilian... That was just one ship with refugees, I am not talking about all the villages which were raped and murdered when the Russians "liberated" the German people.

Another example of revisionist thinking. I have an extensive library of WWII literature, from German, British, American, French and Russian authors. These are very interesting works, many taken from documentation and living witnesses. I'm an avid reader of history, and consider myself very well informed. I find that many Europeans don't want to think about the Bad Old Days, and choose to gloss the whole issue over. The Germans (and I don't mean all of them, only those who followed Hitler's vision of a thousand-year Reich) committed many, many atrocities on not just the Russians, but gypsies, homosexuals, mentally and physically handicapped, the insane, Catholics, Jews, and anyone else who didn't fall in the Aryan Perfection, including those in the Underground within Germany itself. The Russians were enraged by the burned and shattered villages, towns and cities that the Germans swept through. Leningrad was virtually annihilated, as was Stalingrad. I don't condone the hideous retribution the Russians exacted on the German civilians, but you can see the point. Holland was only lightly touched by German occupation forces, but it's civilians lived in fear of the Gestapo, like all the other occupied nations. It wasn't until the Allies forced the Germans from Holland that the real damage to the country occurred. By the way, I have German heritage in my family, and I love the German people...I also have family from Holland, and love them too. They are the friendliest folks, when you don't talk politics, anyway.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-12-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

Another example of revisionist thinking.

Whatever dude. I'm sure you know it all better from your books, while almost half my family got wiped out because of that war.

gospodin · 05-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Clipper Spirit

Whatever dude. I'm sure you know it all better from your books, while almost half my family got wiped out because of that war.

Ok, but nothing changes what happened in history. Sorry about your family, I have some pretty awful stories told to me personally by Kamp survivors, too. The war was bad for everyone, but if you want to keep a chip on your shoulder about it, that's your perogative.

gospodin · 05-12-2007, 02:19 PM

Also, you're looking at this from an emotional bias, and the stories of your family. I look at it from many perspectives, from very scholerly historians, from many different individuals intimately involved with the happenings of those times. Yes, I consider myself very well informed. I don't think what the Russians did was right, but it was not unexpected.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-13-2007, 05:27 AM

Yeah yeah, you're right well informed man.

Hapag-Lloyd · 05-13-2007, 07:57 AM

Steve,

with all of your American ignorance and anti-German bias, you´re overlooking the fact that not only Germany has fallen prey to the vengeance of the Glorious Red Army (TM).

What did countries such as Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belorus, Ukraine, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria do wrong (note that I omitted Romania, which - in accordance to your "eye-for-an-eye" theory - was a German ally)? Nothing, as these countries had, too, fallen prey to Nazi aggression. And yet, these countries, too, were raped by the Glorious Red Army (TM), a collateral damage in defeating fascism, leaving an economically scorched earth in many of the countries mentioned after the demise of the Soviet Union. They were fücked twice, first by the 3rd Reich, and then by the Red Army.

On a side note, as you omit the fates of the countries on the "other" side of what used to be the iron curtain, and you overlook the war crimes the Red Army committed against the civilian population there, I fail to consider you very well-informed or scholarly. On another side note, you also fail to mention the Soviet "Kamps", or Gulags, where most of the Axis war prisoners were tortured and worked to death as well. Along with many innocent civilians (mainly from Hungary and Poland) who were sent there as slaves as well. Read Ephraim Kishon´s autobiography and his recollections on how it was impossible for him to see a difference between what the Nazis did in comparison to what the Soviets did. Maybe then you´ll get a better understanding. And also don´t forget that the Red Army kept many of the captured concentration camps open to detain and murder dissidents there after the end of WW2.

gospodin · 05-13-2007, 09:04 AM

Man, you have twisted up everything I said. The issue here was what Russia did to the Germans, not what they did the everyone else. You want to get into the whole shebang, it would take a lot more than this forum to deal with it. I am NOT anti-German, you are being a bigot by suggesting that, and I am not an ignorant American, you are being ignorant yourself for suggesting that. Let's just call this quits, since I obviously am not going to be able to say or convince you of anything, you have your viewpoint, and I have mine. I'm sorry your country screwed everybody during the war, I'm sorry the Russians came and screwed you back. I spent seven years as a guest in Germany in the Air Force, first at Ramstein AB, then at a small MUNSS in Memmingen. I love the German people, and have quite a few friends there that I still keep in touch with. If I'd had my way, I would still be living there. But nothing changes what was, not your anger at having an Ami tell you he's read up on your history for 35 years, or that I've seen all the monuments to German and Soviet aggression in the eastern half of Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic, Greece, Italy, France, and Finland. I know about it, if you want I'll dig out a bibliography from my library and you can be the judge. I don't know what kind of history courses they teach in Germany, but I imagine they don't dwell on that chapter of your history. I don't put much faith in American history books, either, so that's why I've read from independant sources, many of the best historians that have published accounts of the times. Before you outright condemn a person for what they know, check your own sources. Being German doesn't mean you know it all, just as being American doesn't mean I know everything about my own history (although I read voraciously about it, too), and having family invovled, as sad as that is, doesn't make you an expert on ALL facets of an event. I suggest we abandon this thread, go to our corners, and have no hard feelings. I'd like to deal with both of you as fellow collectors, interesting people from Europe, and as friends within DAC. I wasn't looking for a fight with anyone, and if I've stirred up hard feelings, I'm sorry.

L-1011-Heavy · 05-13-2007, 01:32 PM

Well Perhaps I'm Not As Well Read As Gospodin & I Haven't Lost As Much Family As Clippy, But I Have Read A Fair Bit, Learned From My Parents (My Father From Munchen(His Father Was A Cruel Leuitenant In The SS Killed In Action), My Mother From A Town On Northern Germany Called Alzey)
But From What I Gathered, It's Difficult To Say Who Was More Cruel, The Nazis Or The Red Army Under Stalin. Both Have Commited Unspeakable Atrocities. Both Have Commited The Same Atrocities To Thier Own Poeple & Groups That History Has Seemed To Have Forgotten. The Only Measure Here To Make Any Distinguishing Difference Is By Numbers.

Another Fact I Have Concluded Is That The Germans Would Have Suffered The Same Fate From The Red Army Even If The German Army Did Not Inflict Atrocities To Russian Towns, Villages & Prisoners. It Is Obvious From What The Russians Did To Other Countries That Germany Would Not Have Been Spared The Same Fate.
The Only Thing The German Atrocities & Russian Propganda Did Was Infuriate The Red Army & Russian Poeple More, But In The End, The Result Would Have Been The Same Regardless.

No One Is Innocent...This Was Supposedly The War To End All Wars...Supposedly.

..Lest We Forget

gospodin · 05-13-2007, 02:22 PM

Heavy, the Soviet Union was not poised to strike the Germans in 1939. If Stalin had goals in Europe, it would not have been until 1950 that the Russians would have felt ready to make a move on Germany. They had been quietly building their army and air force, but did not have very good discipline in their military due to the purges of the 1930's, where many of the officers were killed or sent to the gulags. The alliance that Germany proposed gave Stalin the green light to attack his neighbors early, and even so, suffered heavy losses against the Finns. US assistance during the war helped to build Russia up even more, and Russian ingenuity (along with slave labor) moved the industries to the other side of the Urals to protect them from bombing. The Russians would have gone into Europe eventually, that's true. But they would have been careful to preserve as much of German industry and society as they could to further the cause of Soviet domination and the glory of Russia. They would have terrorized Germany, broken it if Hitler had not built his own war machine. Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler ever thought about being, but he would not have annihilated Germany, it would not have served his purpose. Just as Germany would not have been able to destroy Russia, regardless of when Hitler put Barbarossa into operation. Russia is just too big. The best he would have done is to make Russia sue for peace, which was what he really wanted anyway, a helpless Russia. If the US and Britain had not already occupied a large potion of Germany, Russia would have taken all of it, and whatever other countries Stalin could get hold of. So both sides, as you pointed out, Heavy, were equally responsible for the tragedy of WWII, and either one would have been terrible if it had conquered all of Europe. Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that. Like many Americans don't see what horrors the US inflicted on Native Americans, Philippinos, or the immigrants into our country. American history books don't say much about that. Reading history has opened my eyes to a lot of the things the average person knows little or nothing about. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, and I don't know it all, but I have gleaned a lot from 35 years of avid study. And I say again to those who may be offended by my comments or observations: everything I've said can be backed by books written by experts from many countries, and if they don't know history, nobody does.

Planecrazy · 05-13-2007, 02:52 PM

Gentlemen, your arguments about who was nastier in World War II neglects to include the many centuries of equally viscous warfare across the European continent that preceded it.
In your readings, have you come across the reason why Hitler was surprised England wouldn't join him in his Reich? After all, England had a long history of using the very same genocidal methods he practiced. And certainly the United States has unclean hands as anyone can learn from the survivors of its native populations.
The European conflict was the ultimate lesson in how war destroyed more than it acquired. And what followed it? The "Cold War" where EVERYONE could become a french fry (no slight intended to the French) in 30 minues!
My point is that most people (well except George Bush) are finally learning that the old ways will no longer work. I only hope that Russia will more faithfully follow the new World order.

L-1011-Heavy · 05-13-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

Heavy, the Soviet Union was not poised to strike the Germans in 1939. If Stalin had goals in Europe, it would not have been until 1950 that the Russians would have felt ready to make a move on Germany. They had been quietly building their army and air force, but did not have very good discipline in their military due to the purges of the 1930's, where many of the officers were killed or sent to the gulags. The alliance that Germany proposed gave Stalin the green light to attack his neighbors early, and even so, suffered heavy losses against the Finns. US assistance during the war helped to build Russia up even more, and Russian ingenuity (along with slave labor) moved the industries to the other side of the Urals to protect them from bombing. The Russians would have gone into Europe eventually, that's true. But they would have been careful to preserve as much of German industry and society as they could to further the cause of Soviet domination and the glory of Russia. They would have terrorized Germany, broken it if Hitler had not built his own war machine. Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler ever thought about being, but he would not have annihilated Germany, it would not have served his purpose. Just as Germany would not have been able to destroy Russia, regardless of when Hitler put Barbarossa into operation. Russia is just too big. The best he would have done is to make Russia sue for peace, which was what he really wanted anyway, a helpless Russia. If the US and Britain had not already occupied a large potion of Germany, Russia would have taken all of it, and whatever other countries Stalin could get hold of. So both sides, as you pointed out, Heavy, were equally responsible for the tragedy of WWII, and either one would have been terrible if it had conquered all of Europe. Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that. Like many Americans don't see what horrors the US inflicted on Native Americans, Philippinos, or the immigrants into our country. American history books don't say much about that. Reading history has opened my eyes to a lot of the things the average person knows little or nothing about. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, and I don't know it all, but I have gleaned a lot from 35 years of avid study. And I say again to those who may be offended by my comments or observations: everything I've said can be backed by books written by experts from many countries, and if they don't know history, nobody does.

You're Obviously More Read Than Me, But Stalin Was Poised To Break The Alliance With Germany Once The Rest Of Eastern Europe Was Conqured, Stalin Wanted To Conquer Germany Too, Yes, They Would Have Left Industry Intact, But I Think Treatment Of German Captives Would Not Have Been Different, But Total Annhialation Of Key Cities & Towns Would Have.
Rape Pillage & Terrrorism Would Have Been The Same, But as You Said, Much Of That Was From Lack Of Training & Military Discipline. But That Was Late In The War When Stalin Needed To Recruit New Conscripts ("Volunteers") Just As Soon As They Donned A Uniform & Learned How To Pull A Trigger.
We Could Talk Hours On How Different The Red Army Would Be If Stalin Didn't Get Rid Of His Commanders Simply Due To Rage From Losses At Barbarossa.

I'm Also Aware Of The Finnish Victory, Thanks In Part Of The "Poorly Performing & Underarmed" Buffalo Airforce That The Finns Were So Proud Of That Somehow Annihalated The Russian Airforce. It Kept The Russian Ground Troops From Advancing Which Were Clearly Superior, But No Army Advances Without Air Support In Modern Warfare.
The Americans Hated The Air Cooled Buffalo, But They Seemed To Work Well In Colder Climates.

I Think At Least Some Americans Are Aware Of The Horrors Inflicted To The
Native Americans, But The History About The Phillippines Is Rather Hush Hush.(American-First Phillppine Republic War 1899-1902)
I Haven't Read Much On Either, But I Am Aware That The Phllipinos Were Treated More Harshly By The Americans When They Occupied The Phillipines (Until 1913) Than The Japanese Ever Did In WWII. The Americans Also Invented The Concentration Camp There. The Germans Got The Credit For That, But They Merely Adopted It.(They Read Thier History Too)

One Thing Is Certain. "History Is Written By The Victors" Or At Least That's What It Seems At Times. It's A Way Of Governments Justifying Such Actions To It's Poeple & To Cover Up The Truth. Thank God For The Freedom Of The Press In The Vietnam War.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-13-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gospodin

Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that.

So now you've learned what I think as well? It shouldn't get any crazier than this.

You talk about Germans, but who were responsible for the crimes the Germans commited? And which Germans suffered from that? And who were the refugee's from East to West at the end of the war? Try to find that in your books.

Don Clipper Spirit · 05-13-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planecrazy

Gentlemen, your arguments about who was nastier in World War II neglects to include the many centuries of equally viscous warfare across the European continent that preceded it.
In your readings, have you come across the reason why Hitler was surprised England wouldn't join him in his Reich? After all, England had a long history of using the very same genocidal methods he practiced. And certainly the United States has unclean hands as anyone can learn from the survivors of its native populations.
The European conflict was the ultimate lesson in how war destroyed more than it acquired. And what followed it? The "Cold War" where EVERYONE could become a french fry (no slight intended to the French) in 30 minues!
My point is that most people (well except George Bush) are finally learning that the old ways will no longer work. I only hope that Russia will more faithfully follow the new World order.

Well said!

Hapag-Lloyd · 05-13-2007, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Clipper Spirit

Well said!

I second that.

Gospodin, we learn about our history; I learned more in German history classes than I did in the American high school´s social studies. I do beg to differ, however, that the Russians would have tried to leave the industry intact had they conquered Germany. The East German example shows that instead of preserving the industry there, they had entire industrial compexes and factories disassembled in the USSR Zone, and reassembled in Siberia by German slave workers, aka POWs. Also keep in mind that the only reason (!!!) the Wehrmacht did not surrender unconditionally before May 8th, 1945, was that they tried to save as many troops as possible from Soviet Gulags, which would have meant certain death for them. To make up for this "loss of victims", Generalissimo Stalin then ordered civilians to be deported and killed instead.

To get back on topic, have you ever researched what fate the heroic victors from the glorious Red Army suffered after they returned from victory, rape and pillage? They, too, were locked away in the Gulags because they´ve seen too much. "None of them received a hero´s welcome".

gospodin · 05-13-2007, 06:42 PM

What I said about Russia keeping German industry intact was valid. If Russia had conquered Europe, they would have had no need to relocate German industry. The fact that they did in East Germany was because East Germany was only a buffer zone for Soviet forces. If war with the west had broken out, the Russians would have sacrificed East Germany to possible tactical nukes from NATO forces. Also, they had no interest in a strong Germany. Yes, many countries commited atrocities during that time, and we're not even mentioning Japanese agression, or the American responses to it. Croatia was a willing partner of Germany, and had a mini-war with Slovenia during that time. The Hungarians and the Rumanians hated each other, and had to be kept separate by the Germans when they used them as cannon-fodder against Soviet troops. Spain bombed the Basques under Franco's rule (funny how the Basques are getting back for that with ETA). Many Russian troops were sent to gulags simply because Stalin needed slave labor to industrialize his country, and repair the damage of war. German POWs disappeared, and the West did nothing about that for fear of starting a new war. Churchill warned of the Soviet menace, but the people voted him out. The West conveniently forgave much of what happened because German scientists were so valuable. The West was also very generous in rebuilding Germany, but for a price: US domination and bases confronting the Russians. I'm not biased to US ver

05-09-2007, 02:21 AM	#1
A Tupolev Grande Jefe Design Bureau Join Date: May 2005 Location: Russian Vodka Room, NYNY Posts: 1,332	Happy Victory Day! To all my friends in Russia I wish you a happy Victory Day! A toast (any excuse for a shot of vodka) to the defeat of fascism and the great patriotic war! May those that died to defeat the facist RIP! __________________ I am not a number - I am a free man. More Tupolev planes please, Ty-114, Ty-134, Ty-144 My collection: http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...tion-3750.html

05-09-2007, 07:40 AM	#2
gospodin Diecast Blasphemer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nosegoblin, LA Age: 52 Posts: 2,730	Re: Happy Victory Day! Those were some unhappy times in Russia. Nazi's burning villages, bombing cities, commiting genocide on the Russian people...and the Stalinist purges going on at the same time. May Russia's future be brighter, and her people never see those times return. __________________ Steve "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

05-12-2007, 02:19 PM	#10
gospodin Diecast Blasphemer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nosegoblin, LA Age: 52 Posts: 2,730	Re: Happy Victory Day! Also, you're looking at this from an emotional bias, and the stories of your family. I look at it from many perspectives, from very scholerly historians, from many different individuals intimately involved with the happenings of those times. Yes, I consider myself very well informed. I don't think what the Russians did was right, but it was not unexpected. __________________ Steve "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

05-13-2007, 05:27 AM	#11
Don Clipper Spirit Insane Collector Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: At the airport of Amsterdam Posts: 1,132	Re: Happy Victory Day! Yeah yeah, you're right well informed man. __________________ Pan American World Airways - the world's most experienced airline

05-13-2007, 07:57 AM	#12
Hapag-Lloyd Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 39 Posts: 2,242	Re: Happy Victory Day! Steve, with all of your American ignorance and anti-German bias, you´re overlooking the fact that not only Germany has fallen prey to the vengeance of the Glorious Red Army (TM). What did countries such as Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belorus, Ukraine, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria do wrong (note that I omitted Romania, which - in accordance to your "eye-for-an-eye" theory - was a German ally)? Nothing, as these countries had, too, fallen prey to Nazi aggression. And yet, these countries, too, were raped by the Glorious Red Army (TM), a collateral damage in defeating fascism, leaving an economically scorched earth in many of the countries mentioned after the demise of the Soviet Union. They were fücked twice, first by the 3rd Reich, and then by the Red Army. On a side note, as you omit the fates of the countries on the "other" side of what used to be the iron curtain, and you overlook the war crimes the Red Army committed against the civilian population there, I fail to consider you very well-informed or scholarly. On another side note, you also fail to mention the Soviet "Kamps", or Gulags, where most of the Axis war prisoners were tortured and worked to death as well. Along with many innocent civilians (mainly from Hungary and Poland) who were sent there as slaves as well. Read Ephraim Kishon´s autobiography and his recollections on how it was impossible for him to see a difference between what the Nazis did in comparison to what the Soviets did. Maybe then you´ll get a better understanding. And also don´t forget that the Red Army kept many of the captured concentration camps open to detain and murder dissidents there after the end of WW2. __________________ THIS SPACE 4 RENT!!! Last edited by Hapag-Lloyd; 05-13-2007 at 08:04 AM.

05-13-2007, 09:04 AM	#13
gospodin Diecast Blasphemer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nosegoblin, LA Age: 52 Posts: 2,730	Re: Happy Victory Day! Man, you have twisted up everything I said. The issue here was what Russia did to the Germans, not what they did the everyone else. You want to get into the whole shebang, it would take a lot more than this forum to deal with it. I am NOT anti-German, you are being a bigot by suggesting that, and I am not an ignorant American, you are being ignorant yourself for suggesting that. Let's just call this quits, since I obviously am not going to be able to say or convince you of anything, you have your viewpoint, and I have mine. I'm sorry your country screwed everybody during the war, I'm sorry the Russians came and screwed you back. I spent seven years as a guest in Germany in the Air Force, first at Ramstein AB, then at a small MUNSS in Memmingen. I love the German people, and have quite a few friends there that I still keep in touch with. If I'd had my way, I would still be living there. But nothing changes what was, not your anger at having an Ami tell you he's read up on your history for 35 years, or that I've seen all the monuments to German and Soviet aggression in the eastern half of Germany, Hungary, Czech Republic, Greece, Italy, France, and Finland. I know about it, if you want I'll dig out a bibliography from my library and you can be the judge. I don't know what kind of history courses they teach in Germany, but I imagine they don't dwell on that chapter of your history. I don't put much faith in American history books, either, so that's why I've read from independant sources, many of the best historians that have published accounts of the times. Before you outright condemn a person for what they know, check your own sources. Being German doesn't mean you know it all, just as being American doesn't mean I know everything about my own history (although I read voraciously about it, too), and having family invovled, as sad as that is, doesn't make you an expert on ALL facets of an event. I suggest we abandon this thread, go to our corners, and have no hard feelings. I'd like to deal with both of you as fellow collectors, interesting people from Europe, and as friends within DAC. I wasn't looking for a fight with anyone, and if I've stirred up hard feelings, I'm sorry. __________________ Steve "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

05-13-2007, 01:32 PM	#14
L-1011-Heavy The Heavy One Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada, Eh? Trijets & Landors 4 EVER Age: 45 Posts: 4,361	Re: Happy Victory Day! Well Perhaps I'm Not As Well Read As Gospodin & I Haven't Lost As Much Family As Clippy, But I Have Read A Fair Bit, Learned From My Parents (My Father From Munchen(His Father Was A Cruel Leuitenant In The SS Killed In Action), My Mother From A Town On Northern Germany Called Alzey) But From What I Gathered, It's Difficult To Say Who Was More Cruel, The Nazis Or The Red Army Under Stalin. Both Have Commited Unspeakable Atrocities. Both Have Commited The Same Atrocities To Thier Own Poeple & Groups That History Has Seemed To Have Forgotten. The Only Measure Here To Make Any Distinguishing Difference Is By Numbers. Another Fact I Have Concluded Is That The Germans Would Have Suffered The Same Fate From The Red Army Even If The German Army Did Not Inflict Atrocities To Russian Towns, Villages & Prisoners. It Is Obvious From What The Russians Did To Other Countries That Germany Would Not Have Been Spared The Same Fate. The Only Thing The German Atrocities & Russian Propganda Did Was Infuriate The Red Army & Russian Poeple More, But In The End, The Result Would Have Been The Same Regardless. No One Is Innocent...This Was Supposedly The War To End All Wars...Supposedly. ..Lest We Forget __________________ *The Heavy Armada* *"In The Absence Of Excellence, There Is Only Mediocrity."* Last edited by L-1011-Heavy; 05-13-2007 at 01:34 PM.

05-13-2007, 02:22 PM	#15
gospodin Diecast Blasphemer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nosegoblin, LA Age: 52 Posts: 2,730	Re: Happy Victory Day! Heavy, the Soviet Union was not poised to strike the Germans in 1939. If Stalin had goals in Europe, it would not have been until 1950 that the Russians would have felt ready to make a move on Germany. They had been quietly building their army and air force, but did not have very good discipline in their military due to the purges of the 1930's, where many of the officers were killed or sent to the gulags. The alliance that Germany proposed gave Stalin the green light to attack his neighbors early, and even so, suffered heavy losses against the Finns. US assistance during the war helped to build Russia up even more, and Russian ingenuity (along with slave labor) moved the industries to the other side of the Urals to protect them from bombing. The Russians would have gone into Europe eventually, that's true. But they would have been careful to preserve as much of German industry and society as they could to further the cause of Soviet domination and the glory of Russia. They would have terrorized Germany, broken it if Hitler had not built his own war machine. Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler ever thought about being, but he would not have annihilated Germany, it would not have served his purpose. Just as Germany would not have been able to destroy Russia, regardless of when Hitler put Barbarossa into operation. Russia is just too big. The best he would have done is to make Russia sue for peace, which was what he really wanted anyway, a helpless Russia. If the US and Britain had not already occupied a large potion of Germany, Russia would have taken all of it, and whatever other countries Stalin could get hold of. So both sides, as you pointed out, Heavy, were equally responsible for the tragedy of WWII, and either one would have been terrible if it had conquered all of Europe. Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that. Like many Americans don't see what horrors the US inflicted on Native Americans, Philippinos, or the immigrants into our country. American history books don't say much about that. Reading history has opened my eyes to a lot of the things the average person knows little or nothing about. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, and I don't know it all, but I have gleaned a lot from 35 years of avid study. And I say again to those who may be offended by my comments or observations: everything I've said can be backed by books written by experts from many countries, and if they don't know history, nobody does. __________________ Steve "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

05-13-2007, 02:52 PM	#16
Planecrazy Senior Collector Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 480	Re: Happy Victory Day! Gentlemen, your arguments about who was nastier in World War II neglects to include the many centuries of equally viscous warfare across the European continent that preceded it. In your readings, have you come across the reason why Hitler was surprised England wouldn't join him in his Reich? After all, England had a long history of using the very same genocidal methods he practiced. And certainly the United States has unclean hands as anyone can learn from the survivors of its native populations. The European conflict was the ultimate lesson in how war destroyed more than it acquired. And what followed it? The "Cold War" where EVERYONE could become a french fry (no slight intended to the French) in 30 minues! My point is that most people (well except George Bush) are finally learning that the old ways will no longer work. I only hope that Russia will more faithfully follow the new World order.