Peace is NOT the Answer

N2272V · 10-09-2005, 06:12 PM

William Shawcross hit's the nail on the proverbial head in his article in the LA Times today.

Exerpts:

Calls to en Iraq's bloodshed are hardly noble when those who would triumph slaughter teachers as children weep.

It's hard to think of a more graphic illustration of the horror the U.S.-led coalition is fighting in Iraq than the mass murder on Sept. 26, in which terrorists disguised as policemen (a New York Times headline called these butchers "fighters") burst into a primary school in Iskandaria, south of Baghdad, seized five teachers (all Shiites) and shot them dead. Children stood weeping through this atrocity.

Why do crimes like this make so little impression on those Americans and Europeans who want the coalition to abandon Iraq? The demonstrators think of themselves as moral, but it is hard to think of any policy more amoral than abandoning Iraq to such an enemy.

The constitution may not be perfect. But, as the commentator Amir Taheri points out: "This is still the most democratic constitution offered to any Muslim nation so far."

That is thanks to the sacrifice of Casey Sheehan and others. It should be a source of pride in the United States. Thanks to the coalition Iraqis have more confidence in their future than we do. Iraqi refugees are not fleeing abroad in vast numbers, as happened during previous crises. The Iraqi dinar has strengthened, not weakened, against the currencies of other oil-producing nations. The mistakes that have been made in Iraq since its liberation do not alter the fact that the overthrow of Hussein has given Iraqis a chance they never had before and has shaken the ramshackle, corrupt and dictatorial foundations of the Middle East.

That, of course, is why there is such bloody resistance. U.S. soldiers are being killed not by romantic nationalist insurgents (as some liberal journalists and marchers like to pretend) but by an unholy grouping of Saddamite gangsters furious at losing power, Syrian and Iranian agents intent on creating mayhem and then theocracy, and Islamo-fascists who want to enslave the world and whose local Pol Pot, Abu Musab Zarqawi, boasts of seeking to murder as many of Iraq's majority Shiite population as he can.

The sacrifice of U.S. soldiers, of their coalition allies and of Iraqis is horrifically painful. But if we can stay long enough to enable the Iraqis to lay the firm foundation of civil society, their deaths will not be in vain. We should leave when the elected Iraqi government asks us to do so.

It is the promise of freedom that the fascists who murdered the Iraqi teachers last month want to destroy. It is astonishing and discouraging that those who think they were taking the high ground in marching though Washington do not understand this.

For those who do NOT wish have their heads burried in the sands of history repeating itself, read the whole story here:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2522992.story

God Bless the troops who have made the ultimate sacrifice, and God Bless America, the greatest nation on earth.

DavidMich · 10-09-2005, 08:20 PM

My knife if your guts, it's all come to this
My knife if your, you crumple and twist
You're grabbing my arm, you try to resist
I do it again, it's all come to this
I hate you, I hate your face, it's coming apart, I'm going someplace
My life in your guts, my knife will **** sluts
My soul I will kill, your hole I will drill
My knife in your guts, you swallow my fist
My knife in your guts, it's all come to this
I am the insistor, you are the resistor, knife is good
I'm gonna get you, right in the tit
When love turns to hate, and hate turns to hit
Well that's what you get, when love turns to ****
I do it again, and again, and again
I hate you, I hate your face
And now you're reeling beneath a hail of blows
And I'm kicking your head down the street
My knife if your guts, you like it like this
I hold you down, no will to resist
I cut you up, put you in the ground
Just to make sure that you are never found
I am the insistor, you are the resistor
That feels good
And that you think it's dead
You said that something was wrong with my head
But now I think it near, the thing you said that it was dead
Knife is good
You use the knife to remove disease
You use the knife to do as you please
You use the knife to do what you do
You use the knife before the knife is used on you

Hapag-Lloyd · 10-09-2005, 08:44 PM

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller

N2272V · 10-09-2005, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMich

My knife if your guts, it's all come to this
My knife if your, you crumple and twist
You're grabbing my arm, you try to resist
I do it again, it's all come to this
I hate you, I hate your face, it's coming apart, I'm going someplace
My life in your guts, my knife will **** sluts
My soul I will kill, your hole I will drill
My knife in your guts, you swallow my fist
My knife in your guts, it's all come to this
I am the insistor, you are the resistor, knife is good
I'm gonna get you, right in the tit
When love turns to hate, and hate turns to hit
Well that's what you get, when love turns to ****
I do it again, and again, and again
I hate you, I hate your face
And now you're reeling beneath a hail of blows
And I'm kicking your head down the street
My knife if your guts, you like it like this
I hold you down, no will to resist
I cut you up, put you in the ground
Just to make sure that you are never found
I am the insistor, you are the resistor
That feels good
And that you think it's dead
You said that something was wrong with my head
But now I think it near, the thing you said that it was dead
Knife is good
You use the knife to remove disease
You use the knife to do as you please
You use the knife to do what you do
You use the knife before the knife is used on you

Got Prozac? Typed like a true looney tune. I'm glad you're stuck on stupid David. I'd hate to think you were on my side.

Carry on looney tune. Can't get any dumber than this.

N2272V · 10-09-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hapag-Lloyd

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Martin Niemöller

I just know that sooner or later, you're going to make some sense as to what this poem has to do with this thread right? If you are suggesting that America is anything like Nazi Germany, you truly need a brain enema.

More info on it:

First, the version above is taken from an article on the 50th anniversary of the beginning of WW II that appeared in TIME Magazine, Aug 28, 1989. There are many versions of this poem floating around... by no means is this the authorative one. Similarly, the author of the poem is often not mentioned. On one level, that is not important. Indeed, Martin Niemoller was an outspoken advocate for accepting the burden of collective guilt for WW II as a means of atonement for the suffering that the German nation (through the Nazis) had caused before and during WW II.

On the other hand, I think that something is missed if one doesn’t understand that the words come from a man who also declared that he “would rather burn his church to the ground, than to preach the Nazi trinity of ‘race, blood, and soil.’”

Niemoller was tainted. He had been a U-boat captain in WW I prior to becoming a pastor. And he supported Hitler prior to his taking power. Indeed, initially the Nazi press held him up as a model... for his service in WW I. [Newsweek, July 10, 1937, pg 32]

But Niemoller broke very early with the Nazis. In 1933, he organized the Pastor’s Emergency League to protect Lutheran pastors from the police. In 1934, he was one of the leading organizers at the Barmen Synod, which produced the theological basis for the Confessing Church, which despite its persecution became an enduring symbol of German resistance to Hitler.

From 1933 to 1937, Niemoller consistantly trashed everything the Nazis stood for. At one point he declared that it was impossible to “point to the German [Luther] without pointing to the Jew [Christ] to which he pointed to.” [from Charles Colson, Kingdoms in Conflict]

He rejected the Nazi distortion of “Positive Christianity” (postulating the ‘special virtue’ of the German people), as opposed to “Negative Chistianity” which held that all people regardless of race were guilty of sin and in need of repentance. An excerpt from a sermon of his printed in TIME Magazine [Feb 21, 1928, pg 25-27]:

Carry on looney tune.

DavidMich · 10-09-2005, 11:45 PM

I think it's time I break out the gas & matches.

richie154 · 10-10-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMich

I think it's time I break out the gas & matches.

David, you are STUCK ON STUPID!!

Takeo von Tucher · 10-10-2005, 11:53 AM

The LA Times really prints such a 'Propaganda Crap'???
Duh, Josef Goebells wouldn´t have done any better! There are many ways you can look at the same thing, and there are many ways you can express it in words, and many ways using rhetoric means. I stay with Imanuel Kant, who sais: "Never ever interfere in other countries interests - no matter what you'll do you´ll always loose!

But what am I talking about: George W. Bush and Imanuel Kant - worlds apart... meaning two individuals on oposite sides of the Inteligence Scale!

N2272V · 10-10-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeo von Tucher

The LA Times really prints such a 'Propaganda Crap'???
Duh, Josef Goebells wouldn´t have done any better! There are many ways you can look at the same thing, and there are many ways you can express it in words, and many ways using rhetoric means. I stay with Imanuel Kant, who sais: "Never ever interfere in other countries interests - no matter what you'll do you´ll always loose!

But what am I talking about: George W. Bush and Imanuel Kant - worlds apart... meaning two individuals on oposite sides of the Inteligence Scale!

Intelligence, something you obviously will never experience.

Do you even see how truly idiotic MOST of your positions are? I'm betting that through hindsight there are millions of Jews who wished Chamberlain and the WORLD had interefered with Hitler before WWII. Suffice it to say that history is lost on morons like you. Carry on!

N2272V · 10-10-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie154

David, you are STUCK ON STUPID!!

Richie, you're stuck on MORON!

DavidMich · 10-10-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

Richie, you're stuck on MORON!

I may be stuck on stupid, but that's much better than Jimblo, he's stuck on queer!

Takeo von Tucher · 10-10-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

Intelligence, something you obviously will never experience.

Do you even see how truly idiotic MOST of your positions are? I'm betting that through hindsight there are millions of Jews who wished Chamberlain and the WORLD had interefered with Hitler before WWII. Suffice it to say that history is lost on morons like you. Carry on!

Sure, Sure Jimmy Blowhorn... what about doing a little research on WHY THE FASCISTIC WESTERN WORLD OF 1935 DIDN'T INTERFERE WITH ADOLF HITLER??? Hmmm, any guess???

N2272V · 10-10-2005, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeo von Tucher

Sure, Sure Jimmy Blowhorn... what about doing a little research on WHY THE FASCISTIC WESTERN WORLD OF 1935 DIDN'T INTERFERE WITH ADOLF HITLER??? Hmmm, any guess???

You can't even get Fascist right moron. The western world was not Fascist, that would be your buddies the Nazi's in Germany, empire of the Japanese, Nationalists of Spain and Fascists in Italy. The Western World FYI were Democracies bone head.

I can tell you why the Western Democracies didn't interfere with Hitler. For the same reason morons like you think we shouldn't interfere in the MiddleEast. Western Democracies don't like to go to War and they think that by appeasing Thugs and Dictators, they can limit the territorial desires of these despots. The problem is, appeasement only makes despots MORE bold in thinking that they can bully Democracies into giving them what they want. Then, it becomes too late and costs thousands, if not millions of lives.

If you didn't have such an absurd distorted view of history, you would understand this. Suffice it to say you apparently live in a cave and are pretty much clueless. I suggest you go back to this article, read it, try to comprehend it, and then perhaps you can put together a coherent thought. Try to be what you claim, an open minded Liberal Intelectual and quit acting like such a clueles moron.

Until then, you're obviously stuck on stupid, and dismissed.

Takeo von Tucher · 10-10-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

You can't even get Fascist right moron. The western world was not Fascist, that would be your buddies the Nazi's in Germany, empire of the Japanese, Nationalists of Spain and Fascists in Italy. The Western World FYI were Democracies bone head.

Sure, Democracies, in which Black Citizens had to be escorted by Policemen, when they wanted to study and tried to get into the University buildings! This was about 10 years after the Nazis!

Sure, Democracies of the british Empire and Commonwaelth spread all over the world where British upper Class rules, where everybody was equal, but surely Britsh over all - and no real rights for the Indigenous please - don´t forget: hardly human beings!!!

Sure, Democracies who wouldn´t let any Jewish Citizen from Nazi Germany let in, just in case - don´t forget - our money, and their money, is in game...

Dismissed hipocratic Blowhorn!!!

N2272V · 10-10-2005, 10:22 PM

Isn't it ironic that there is no such thing as a "perfect" society. I guess you will always be content supporting Jihadists, communists and Leftists as they try to drag EVERYONE down to the lowest common denominator. Thank God the world isn't what you preceive it as dumbass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeo von Tucher

Sure, Democracies, in which Black Citizens had to be escorted by Policemen, when they wanted to study and tried to get into the University buildings! This was about 10 years after the Nazis!

Where Black citizens have a much HIGHER standard of living than they have in Africa. Where Jesse Owens represented the USA in the 1932 Olympics and won Five Gold medals for the USA. DUH!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeo von Tucher

Sure, Democracies of the british Empire and Commonwaelth spread all over the world where British upper Class rules, where everybody was equal, but surely Britsh over all - and no real rights for the Indigenous please - don´t forget: hardly human beings!!!

A British Empire where Rhodesians were much better off than their Zimbabwe counterparts are today. Have you taken a GOOD look at what is happening in Africa lately moron? The British may not have been right in their desire to expand their empire and conquer nations, but if you look at most of the places they impacted, it was with a POSITIVE effect, more than a negative. The peoples under their rule had MORE freedom than they currently have, or will have tomorrow. DUH!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeo von Tucher

Sure, Democracies who wouldn´t let any Jewish Citizen from Nazi Germany let in, just in case - don´t forget - our money, and their money, is in game...

I find this statement ironic coming from a terrorist loving, jew hating moron like yourself. Suffice it to say that this also is FALSE. Debunking the myth:
http://www.vdare.com/locke/debunking.htm

So once more, you choose to rant absurd nonsense rather than take history in context to events. Not surprising for an open minded Liberal Intellect like yourself.

Dismissed looney tune!

Takeo von Tucher · 10-11-2005, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

I find this statement ironic coming from a terrorist loving, jew hating moron like yourself.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...

... why don´t you just go to bed and relax a little...? You'll see - tomorow the sun will rise and things will seem much better than today...

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy...

cpal_747 · 10-11-2005, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

Where Black citizens have a much HIGHER standard of living than they have in Africa. Where Jesse Owens represented the USA in the 1932 Olympics and won Five Gold medals for the USA. DUH![/b]

Dismissed looney tune! [/b][/font][/size][/color]

I would check the date on that Olympics Jimbo, although facts were never one of your strong suits.

N2272V · 10-11-2005, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

I would check the date on that Olympics Jimbo, although facts were never one of your strong suits.

1936 Olympics. The point and the facts are still the same putz for brains.

Dissmissed.

cpal_747 · 10-11-2005, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

1936 Olympics. The point and the facts are still the same putz for brains.

Dissmissed.

Of course the black citizens have a higher standard of living. Just to make sure, is that before or after slavery?

I think that you have missed your true calling, keynote speaker for the NAACP.

Hapag-Lloyd · 10-11-2005, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

1936 Olympics. The point and the facts are still the same putz for brains.

Dissmissed.

The same Olympic games where Helene Mayer (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helene_Mayer), a Jewish foil fencer, won the silver medal for Germany. Still, she would not have been allowed to marry an "aryan" man and had her civil rights restricted on an almost weekly basis.

Questin is: would Jesse Owens, son of a cotton picker, born 9-12-1913 in Danville, alabama, have been allowed to show himself on the street dating a white girl without being lynched the Schwerner way?

To save you the pondering: The answer is NO. And, above all, those Alabamians that would have lynched him would most probably never have stood trial for their crime. Not in the 1930s in ´Bama, no siree!

N2272V · 10-11-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hapag-Lloyd

The same Olympic games where Helene Mayer (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helene_Mayer), a Jewish foil fencer, won the silver medal for Germany. Still, she would not have been allowed to marry an "aryan" man and had her civil rights restricted on an almost weekly basis.

Questin is: would Jesse Owens, son of a cotton picker, born 9-12-1913 in Danville, alabama, have been allowed to show himself on the street dating a white girl without being lynched the Schwerner way?

To save you the pondering: The answer is NO. And, above all, those Alabamians that would have lynched him would most probably never have stood trial for their crime. Not in the 1930s in ´Bama, no siree!

So what is your point? Better yet, how does it relate to this thread even? I am very aware of our history.

10-09-2005, 06:12 PM	#1
N2272V Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Ventura Age: 54 Posts: 2,110	Peace is NOT the Answer William Shawcross hit's the nail on the proverbial head in his article in the LA Times today. Exerpts: Calls to en Iraq's bloodshed are hardly noble when those who would triumph slaughter teachers as children weep. It's hard to think of a more graphic illustration of the horror the U.S.-led coalition is fighting in Iraq than the mass murder on Sept. 26, in which terrorists disguised as policemen (a New York Times headline called these butchers "fighters") burst into a primary school in Iskandaria, south of Baghdad, seized five teachers (all Shiites) and shot them dead. Children stood weeping through this atrocity. Why do crimes like this make so little impression on those Americans and Europeans who want the coalition to abandon Iraq? The demonstrators think of themselves as moral, but it is hard to think of any policy more amoral than abandoning Iraq to such an enemy. The constitution may not be perfect. But, as the commentator Amir Taheri points out: "This is still the most democratic constitution offered to any Muslim nation so far." That is thanks to the sacrifice of Casey Sheehan and others. It should be a source of pride in the United States. Thanks to the coalition Iraqis have more confidence in their future than we do. Iraqi refugees are not fleeing abroad in vast numbers, as happened during previous crises. The Iraqi dinar has strengthened, not weakened, against the currencies of other oil-producing nations. The mistakes that have been made in Iraq since its liberation do not alter the fact that the overthrow of Hussein has given Iraqis a chance they never had before and has shaken the ramshackle, corrupt and dictatorial foundations of the Middle East. That, of course, is why there is such bloody resistance. U.S. soldiers are being killed not by romantic nationalist insurgents (as some liberal journalists and marchers like to pretend) but by an unholy grouping of Saddamite gangsters furious at losing power, Syrian and Iranian agents intent on creating mayhem and then theocracy, and Islamo-fascists who want to enslave the world and whose local Pol Pot, Abu Musab Zarqawi, boasts of seeking to murder as many of Iraq's majority Shiite population as he can. The sacrifice of U.S. soldiers, of their coalition allies and of Iraqis is horrifically painful. But if we can stay long enough to enable the Iraqis to lay the firm foundation of civil society, their deaths will not be in vain. We should leave when the elected Iraqi government asks us to do so. It is the promise of freedom that the fascists who murdered the Iraqi teachers last month want to destroy. It is astonishing and discouraging that those who think they were taking the high ground in marching though Washington do not understand this. For those who do NOT wish have their heads burried in the sands of history repeating itself, read the whole story here: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2522992.story God Bless the troops who have made the ultimate sacrifice, and God Bless America, the greatest nation on earth. Last edited by N2272V; 10-09-2005 at 06:18 PM.

10-09-2005, 08:20 PM	#2
DavidMich Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Back in MCO! Posts: 3,626	Jimblo, Eat me, You Scum! My knife if your guts, it's all come to this My knife if your, you crumple and twist You're grabbing my arm, you try to resist I do it again, it's all come to this I hate you, I hate your face, it's coming apart, I'm going someplace My life in your guts, my knife will ** sluts My soul I will kill, your hole I will drill My knife in your guts, you swallow my fist My knife in your guts, it's all come to this I am the insistor, you are the resistor, knife is good I'm gonna get you, right in the tit When love turns to hate, and hate turns to hit Well that's what you get, when love turns to ** I do it again, and again, and again I hate you, I hate your face And now you're reeling beneath a hail of blows And I'm kicking your head down the street My knife if your guts, you like it like this I hold you down, no will to resist I cut you up, put you in the ground Just to make sure that you are never found I am the insistor, you are the resistor That feels good And that you think it's dead You said that something was wrong with my head But now I think it near, the thing you said that it was dead Knife is good You use the knife to remove disease You use the knife to do as you please You use the knife to do what you do You use the knife before the knife is used on you __________________ "So if man is 5, and the devil is 6, then that must make me 7,,,this honky's gone to heaven!"

10-09-2005, 08:44 PM	#3
Hapag-Lloyd Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2004 Age: 40 Posts: 2,395	First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a communist; Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a socialist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me-- and there was no one left to speak out for me. Martin Niemöller __________________ THIS SPACE 4 RENT!!!

10-09-2005, 11:45 PM	#6
DavidMich Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Back in MCO! Posts: 3,626	I think it's time I break out the gas & matches. __________________ "So if man is 5, and the devil is 6, then that must make me 7,,,this honky's gone to heaven!"

10-10-2005, 11:53 AM	#8
Takeo von Tucher Senior Collector Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 419	The LA Times really prints such a 'Propaganda Crap'??? Duh, Josef Goebells wouldn´t have done any better! There are many ways you can look at the same thing, and there are many ways you can express it in words, and many ways using rhetoric means. I stay with Imanuel Kant, who sais: "Never ever interfere in other countries interests - no matter what you'll do you´ll always loose! But what am I talking about: George W. Bush and Imanuel Kant - worlds apart... meaning two individuals on oposite sides of the Inteligence Scale!