Att Criton: Is US playing by the rules in Softwood

cpal_747 · 08-10-2005, 09:29 PM

I want to know what your take on this situation is. Here is the latest NAFTA ruling

http://www.canada.com/national/story...0-f3d9ed05925f

OTTAWA -- Canada is claiming a major victory in the softwood lumber dispute with the U.S. following a key NAFTA panel ruling, and is demanding quick repayment of billions of dollars in penalties collected by Washington

An extraordinary challenge panel under the North American Free Trade Agreement has dismissed American claims that an earlier NAFTA ruling in favour of Canada violated trade rules.

Canadian lumber industry spokesmen are already claiming this is the final blow that should end the dispute and are demanding quick return of the $5 billion in penalties so far paid to Washington.

But Washington quickly signalled isn't giving up the fight.

Criton · 08-11-2005, 10:58 AM

Needless to say, I haven't been losing much sleep over this. On the other hand, won't increasing Canada's timber harvest hurt the country's efforts to comply with Kyoto?

N2272V · 08-11-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

I want to know what your take on this situation is. Here is the latest NAFTA ruling

http://www.canada.com/national/story...0-f3d9ed05925f

OTTAWA -- Canada is claiming a major victory in the softwood lumber dispute with the U.S. following a key NAFTA panel ruling, and is demanding quick repayment of billions of dollars in penalties collected by Washington

An extraordinary challenge panel under the North American Free Trade Agreement has dismissed American claims that an earlier NAFTA ruling in favour of Canada violated trade rules.

Canadian lumber industry spokesmen are already claiming this is the final blow that should end the dispute and are demanding quick return of the $5 billion in penalties so far paid to Washington.

But Washington quickly signalled isn't giving up the fight.

This whole argument boils down to what Canadian Companies pay to the government for the right to harvest trees on Government land called "stumpage."

Here is a great article regarding this written by a Canadian from Quebec. I am including a part of the article, the rest, for those who care, can be seen on http://forests.org/archive/canada/caresown.htm :

"THE GALLON ENVIRONMENT LETTER
Vol. 5, No. 12,
Copyright (c) 2001, Canadian Institute for Business and the Environment, Montreal & Toronto
March 21, 2001
506 Victoria Ave.
Montreal, Quebec H3Y 2R5
Ph. (514) 369-0230
Fax (514) 369-3282
Email ggallon@pcstarnet.com

CANADA PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR SOFTWOOD LUMBER DISPUTE

The fact is that forest companies operating in Canada are receiving more subsidies and paying lower stumpage fees than their counterparts in the United States. Forest companies in Canada do less reforestation and protect less endangered species than those in the U.S. Forest companies in Canada have been purposefully low-grading valuable timber for which they pay much less stumpage fees than they would if they were more honest. As a result, the forest companies in Canada are operating a definite competitive advantage over the U.S. forest companies. Canada is allowing its valuable forests to be stripped as quickly as possible and sold at a discount to the United States - - without giving a thought to sustainable yield, adequate old growth protection, and long-term economic protection of the forest industry into the next generation. Home builders and commercial lumber companies in the United States love it, because they can get such cheap timber from Canada, when they can't it from their U.S. forest companies. Also, it is suspected that Quebec forest companies are cutting trees and selling the timber cheap through the Atlantic provinces to the U.S. without being subject to the more expensive U.S. Canada softwood trade agreement (see, "Lumber Unity in Tatters as B.C. Breaks Ranks", by Ian Jack, Financial Post, March 21, 2001). If Canada is going to participate in free trade then it must play on a level playing field. It can't dump cheap timber into the United States just to boost the immediate income of foreign and Canadian forest companies operating in Canada. Ironically, Canada has placed itself in a position where the U.S. will end up placing a countervailing duty on the Canadian timber that enters the U.S. "

"A recent Vancouver Sun newspaper survey of stumpage rates showed that Doman – which harvests over three million cubic metres of timber a year, paid an average price of $26.83 a cubic metre in 2000, more than four times rival Interfor, which paid only $6.28 a cubic metre. A cubic metre is about the equivalent of a telephone pole Under an obscure piece of legislation called the Ministry of Forests Act, the forests minister is required to ensure stumpage is collected in a fair and equitable manner. Source: Vancouver Sun See the comments at http://e-wood.com/news/news_archive_Detail.asp?id=3851 . See the full article at http://www.e-wood.com/nsearch.asp?ke...1/1/00INTERFOR, TIMBER WEST, AND WEYERHAEUSER GOT AWAY WITH PAYING VERY LOW STUMPAGE RATES IN B.C. "

I hope that this Canadian has sufficient credibility to put this argument in perspective for you Cpal. We all know how you abhor the FACTS. Seeing that you fancy yourself this GREEN Environmentalist, this should make you angry as hell at the Canadian Government. Does one see irony in your statements?

Now you have, THE REST of the story.

Carry on!

cpal_747 · 08-11-2005, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

This whole argument boils down to what Canadian Companies pay to the government for the right to harvest trees on Government land called "stumpage."

Here is a great article regarding this written by a Canadian from Quebec. I am including a part of the article, the rest, for those who care, can be seen on http://forests.org/archive/canada/caresown.htm :

"THE GALLON ENVIRONMENT LETTER
Vol. 5, No. 12,
Copyright (c) 2001, Canadian Institute for Business and the Environment, Montreal & Toronto
March 21, 2001
506 Victoria Ave.
Montreal, Quebec H3Y 2R5
Ph. (514) 369-0230
Fax (514) 369-3282
Email ggallon@pcstarnet.com

CANADA PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR SOFTWOOD LUMBER DISPUTE

The fact is that forest companies operating in Canada are receiving more subsidies and paying lower stumpage fees than their counterparts in the United States. Forest companies in Canada do less reforestation and protect less endangered species than those in the U.S. Forest companies in Canada have been purposefully low-grading valuable timber for which they pay much less stumpage fees than they would if they were more honest. As a result, the forest companies in Canada are operating a definite competitive advantage over the U.S. forest companies. Canada is allowing its valuable forests to be stripped as quickly as possible and sold at a discount to the United States - - without giving a thought to sustainable yield, adequate old growth protection, and long-term economic protection of the forest industry into the next generation. Home builders and commercial lumber companies in the United States love it, because they can get such cheap timber from Canada, when they can't it from their U.S. forest companies. Also, it is suspected that Quebec forest companies are cutting trees and selling the timber cheap through the Atlantic provinces to the U.S. without being subject to the more expensive U.S. Canada softwood trade agreement (see, "Lumber Unity in Tatters as B.C. Breaks Ranks", by Ian Jack, Financial Post, March 21, 2001). If Canada is going to participate in free trade then it must play on a level playing field. It can't dump cheap timber into the United States just to boost the immediate income of foreign and Canadian forest companies operating in Canada. Ironically, Canada has placed itself in a position where the U.S. will end up placing a countervailing duty on the Canadian timber that enters the U.S. "

"A recent Vancouver Sun newspaper survey of stumpage rates showed that Doman – which harvests over three million cubic metres of timber a year, paid an average price of $26.83 a cubic metre in 2000, more than four times rival Interfor, which paid only $6.28 a cubic metre. A cubic metre is about the equivalent of a telephone pole Under an obscure piece of legislation called the Ministry of Forests Act, the forests minister is required to ensure stumpage is collected in a fair and equitable manner. Source: Vancouver Sun See the comments at http://e-wood.com/news/news_archive_Detail.asp?id=3851 . See the full article at http://www.e-wood.com/nsearch.asp?ke...1/1/00INTERFOR, TIMBER WEST, AND WEYERHAEUSER GOT AWAY WITH PAYING VERY LOW STUMPAGE RATES IN B.C. "

I hope that this Canadian has sufficient credibility to put this argument in perspective for you Cpal. We all know how you abhor the FACTS. Seeing that you fancy yourself this GREEN Environmentalist, this should make you angry as hell at the Canadian Government. Does one see irony in your statements?

Now you have, THE REST of the story.

Carry on!

Seeing as the facts in the case are that they gone to the NAFTA board and the WTO for binding rulings and Canada has won every case yet the Americans are still charging levies and refuse to pay back the 5 billion (plus interest)that they have already collected so far.

If you are not going to play by the NAFTA rules, why the hell would you sign the agreement in the first place?

N2272V · 08-11-2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

Seeing as the facts in the case are that they gone to the NAFTA board and the WTO for binding rulings and Canada has won every case yet the Americans are still charging levies and refuse to pay back the 5 billion (plus interest)that they have already collected so far.

If you are not going to play by the NAFTA rules, why the hell would you sign the agreement in the first place?

Who says the US isn't playing by NAFTA rules? It's in litigation thanks to YOUR government. US companies are at an economic disadvantage based on the Canadian assessment I posted.

Aren't you angry at your own government for being a sell-out? I suggest you read that article and write Ottawa and demand regulatory changes that will better preserve the forests and wild life.

Carry on!

cpal_747 · 08-11-2005, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

Who says the US isn't playing by NAFTA rules? It's in litigation thanks to YOUR government. US companies are at an economic disadvantage based on the Canadian assessment I posted.

Aren't you angry at your own government for being a sell-out? I suggest you read that article and write Ottawa and demand regulatory changes that will better preserve the forests and wild life.

Carry on!

There have been seven decisions on this matter, all of them have ruled in favour of the Canadian argument, so who do you think is bringing it back to litigation.

Since you obviosuly have no idea of this situation and just like to spout useless nonsense, that is why I asked Criton and not you.

If you want to learn something, learn about the WTO decision on this matter. You can read about it here: http://www.buildingonline.com/news/viewnews.pl?id=1622

In fact, I'll summarize that one for you:

Friday’s preliminary ruling by the World Trade Organization (WTO) that countervailing duties imposed by the U.S. Commerce Department on imports of Canadian softwood lumber should be rescinded.
"This is good news for American consumers, home buyers and renters who are now bearing the brunt of duties averaging 27.2 percent on Canadian lumber"
The WTO decision clearly shows that the U.S. Commerce Department's findings that Canadian softwood lumber is subsidized are "fatally flawed,"

The funny thing is that this article is from 3 years and one of the parties is still holding up the proceedings, which red white and blue party do you think that is Jimbo?

N2272V · 08-11-2005, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

There have been seven decisions on this matter, all of them have ruled in favour of the Canadian argument, so who do you think is bringing it back to litigation.

Since you obviosuly have no idea of this situation and just like to spout useless nonsense, that is why I asked Criton and not you.

If you want to learn something, learn about the WTO decision on this matter. You can read about it here: http://www.buildingonline.com/news/viewnews.pl?id=1622

In fact, I'll summarize that one for you:

Friday’s preliminary ruling by the World Trade Organization (WTO) that countervailing duties imposed by the U.S. Commerce Department on imports of Canadian softwood lumber should be rescinded.
"This is good news for American consumers, home buyers and renters who are now bearing the brunt of duties averaging 27.2 percent on Canadian lumber"
The WTO decision clearly shows that the U.S. Commerce Department's findings that Canadian softwood lumber is subsidized are "fatally flawed,"

The funny thing is that this article is from 3 years and one of the parties is still holding up the proceedings, which red white and blue party do you think that is Jimbo?

I guess I have to keep repeating myself because your first grade reading and comprehension level only allows you to have one thought at a time:

Aren't you angry at your own government for being a sell-out? I suggest you read that article and write Ottawa and demand regulatory changes that will better preserve the forests and wild life.

Dimissed looney tune!

ARIUS · 08-11-2005, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

"THE GALLON ENVIRONMENT LETTER
Vol. 5, No. 12,
Copyright (c) 2001, Canadian Institute for Business and the Environment, Montreal & Toronto
March 21, 2001
506 Victoria Ave.
Montreal, Quebec H3Y 2R5
Ph. (514) 369-0230
Fax (514) 369-3282
Email ggallon@pcstarnet.com

CANADA PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR SOFTWOOD LUMBER DISPUTE

The fact is that forest companies operating in Canada are receiving more subsidies and paying lower stumpage fees than their counterparts in the United States. Forest companies in Canada do less reforestation and protect less endangered species than those in the U.S. Forest companies in Canada have been purposefully low-grading valuable timber for which they pay much less stumpage fees than they would if they were more honest. As a result, the forest companies in Canada are operating a definite competitive advantage over the U.S. forest companies. Canada is allowing its valuable forests to be stripped as quickly as possible and sold at a discount to the United States - - without giving a thought to sustainable yield, adequate old growth protection, and long-term economic protection of the forest industry into the next generation. Home builders and commercial lumber companies in the United States love it, because they can get such cheap timber from Canada, when they can't it from their U.S. forest companies. Also, it is suspected that Quebec forest companies are cutting trees and selling the timber cheap through the Atlantic provinces to the U.S. without being subject to the more expensive U.S. Canada softwood trade agreement (see, "Lumber Unity in Tatters as B.C. Breaks Ranks", by Ian Jack, Financial Post, March 21, 2001). If Canada is going to participate in free trade then it must play on a level playing field. It can't dump cheap timber into the United States just to boost the immediate income of foreign and Canadian forest companies operating in Canada. Ironically, Canada has placed itself in a position where the U.S. will end up placing a countervailing duty on the Canadian timber that enters the U.S. "

"A recent Vancouver Sun newspaper survey of stumpage rates showed that Doman – which harvests over three million cubic metres of timber a year, paid an average price of $26.83 a cubic metre in 2000, more than four times rival Interfor, which paid only $6.28 a cubic metre. A cubic metre is about the equivalent of a telephone pole Under an obscure piece of legislation called the Ministry of Forests Act, the forests minister is required to ensure stumpage is collected in a fair and equitable manner. Source: Vancouver Sun See the comments at http://e-wood.com/news/news_archive_Detail.asp?id=3851 . See the full article at http://www.e-wood.com/nsearch.asp?ke...1/1/00INTERFOR, TIMBER WEST, AND WEYERHAEUSER GOT AWAY WITH PAYING VERY LOW STUMPAGE RATES IN B.C. "

Liberal Rubbish.

cpal_747 · 08-12-2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

I guess I have to keep repeating myself because your first grade reading and comprehension level only allows you to have one thought at a time:

Aren't you angry at your own government for being a sell-out? I suggest you read that article and write Ottawa and demand regulatory changes that will better preserve the forests and wild life.

Dimissed looney tune!

Why would I take anything written on a tree-hugging website seriously? Although I did read some of the other articles, like Finding Your Ecological Niche, Giving Yourself to Gaia and Genetically Modified Super Weeds Closer to Reality. Basically there message is not to cut down any trees.

But as always, you skirt by the issue that the US has lost Seven rulings in the Softwood dispute and yet they refuse to refund the 5 billion (plus interest) that has already been paid. I always thought you wacky republicans were for less government, yet here it seems to be about more government interference.

So why do you feel that the US is above the NAFTA and WTO rulings Jimbo?

Dr Evil · 08-12-2005, 05:44 AM

I have a toilet seat made out of US and Canadian timber... Feels funny as you can feel the colder climate from Canada in your left buttock while the right buttock is a little warmer due to the warmer climate in the US.

Hapag-Lloyd · 08-12-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

If you are not going to play by the NAFTA rules, why the hell would you sign the agreement in the first place?

To get access to cheap Mexican labor.

N2272V · 08-12-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

Why would I take anything written on a tree-hugging website seriously?

Because that is the kind of bull**** you like to wallow in C-Pal. It fits into your whining about global warming and the fact that YOUR country doesn't even abide by the Kyoto treaty they so willingly signed onto. Now why don't you whine about how the Canadian lumber industry is destroying your forests? Or the fact that your country has yet to comply with the treaty it signs regarding global warming? All this whining about the USA when there is so much you could do right there in Canada.

I'm betting your not even Canadian. You're probably some looney Liberal who is a Canadian wannabe and pretends they live there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cpal_747

But as always, you skirt by the issue that the US has lost Seven rulings in the Softwood dispute and yet they refuse to refund the 5 billion (plus interest) that has already been paid. I always thought you wacky republicans were for less government, yet here it seems to be about more government interference.

So why do you feel that the US is above the NAFTA and WTO rulings Jimbo?

The US and Canada are sorting this out in the courts Cpal.

You have to ask yourself the question why you think it is okay for the Canadian government to give your lumber companies cheap access to your wilderness without any regulations to protect the environment. Why do you not care about the environment Cpal? You seem so concerned about it when it comes to the USA, yet when it is your own country, you could care less.

Our lumber companies are under all kinds of regulations to protect watersheds and edangered species, in addition to competively bidding for the land they log on. Why aren't yours?

If I were you I would be real concerned. Not only by the Canadian lumber companies competitive advantage, but by the fact they they do not have to comply with any environmental protections. What conundrum we find ourselves in eh?

Frankly, I am enjoying the fact that we can get CHEAPER lumber from Canada and not have to destroy our own forests. As far as I am concerned, let's open up the border to easy cheap Canadian lumber! I don't think the US should stop it, or put tarifs on it. I say bring it on! It's good for our economy, and bad for your environment. Kinda like the best of BOTH worlds eh?

Carry on looney tune.

cpal_747 · 08-12-2005, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N2272V

Because that is the kind of bull**** you like to wallow in C-Pal. It fits into your whining about global warming and the fact that YOUR country doesn't even abide by the Kyoto treaty they so willingly signed onto. Now why don't you whine about how the Canadian lumber industry is destroying your forests? Or the fact that your country has yet to comply with the treaty it signs regarding global warming? All this whining about the USA when there is so much you could do right there in Canada.

I'm betting your not even Canadian. You're probably some looney Liberal who is a Canadian wannabe and pretends they live there.

The US and Canada are sorting this out in the courts Cpal.

You have to ask yourself the question why you think it is okay for the Canadian government to give your lumber companies cheap access to your wilderness without any regulations to protect the environment. Why do you not care about the environment Cpal? You seem so concerned about it when it comes to the USA, yet when it is your own country, you could care less.

Our lumber companies are under all kinds of regulations to protect watersheds and edangered species, in addition to competively bidding for the land they log on. Why aren't yours?

If I were you I would be real concerned. Not only by the Canadian lumber companies competitive advantage, but by the fact they they do not have to comply with any environmental protections. What conundrum we find ourselves in eh?

Frankly, I am enjoying the fact that we can get CHEAPER lumber from Canada and not have to destroy our own forests. As far as I am concerned, let's open up the border to easy cheap Canadian lumber! I don't think the US should stop it, or put tarifs on it. I say bring it on! It's good for our economy, and bad for your environment. Kinda like the best of BOTH worlds eh?

Carry on looney tune.

How are you convinced that there is a competitive adavantage? All of the rulings done by the NAFTA board and also the WTO board have not been able to find any subsidies, yet you seem to be able to find them.

If you knew anything about our lumber companies, you would know about the reforestation programs that they have to abide by, but that doesn't fit into your rhetoric so you seem to ignore that point.

Once again I will ask, Why doesn't the US abide by the NAFTA and WTO rulings and refund the 5 billion that they have essentialy stolen from the Canadian lumber companies? Just try to answer this question and don't go off on one of your tangents and try to steer the topic away.

08-10-2005, 09:29 PM	#1
cpal_747 Mission Accomplished! Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 750	Att Criton: Is US playing by the rules in Softwood I want to know what your take on this situation is. Here is the latest NAFTA ruling http://www.canada.com/national/story...0-f3d9ed05925f OTTAWA -- Canada is claiming a major victory in the softwood lumber dispute with the U.S. following a key NAFTA panel ruling, and is demanding quick repayment of billions of dollars in penalties collected by Washington An extraordinary challenge panel under the North American Free Trade Agreement has dismissed American claims that an earlier NAFTA ruling in favour of Canada violated trade rules. Canadian lumber industry spokesmen are already claiming this is the final blow that should end the dispute and are demanding quick return of the $5 billion in penalties so far paid to Washington. But Washington quickly signalled isn't giving up the fight. __________________ They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - Ben Franklin

08-12-2005, 05:44 AM	#10
Dr Evil Where's my "avatar"? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dr. Evil's secret lair Posts: 526	I have a toilet seat made out of US and Canadian timber... Feels funny as you can feel the colder climate from Canada in your left buttock while the right buttock is a little warmer due to the warmer climate in the US. __________________ "I'm surrounded by freakin' idiots..."

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08-11-2005, 10:58 AM	#2
Criton Master Collector Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Silver Spring, MD USA Posts: 756	Needless to say, I haven't been losing much sleep over this. On the other hand, won't increasing Canada's timber harvest hurt the country's efforts to comply with Kyoto?