psalover

Listen you unsympathetic morons.I can't believe that you guys would post crap like that on a post that is for morning.Now I see why people dislike the U.S.You know,I may not spell all that great,but I do have class.

[quote]N2272V,
Oh I see. So then what do we do with terrorists? Just curious. It's supposedly inhumane to keep them locked up without a trial by their peers (assuming we can find twelve terrorists to sit in judgement). It's also inhumane to forceably get information from them (so I guess we should just let them all go). I also understand, from the Liberals, that it is wrong to go into other countries that may harbor them and rout them out. Doesn't leave a whole lot of options. I suppose we could talk them to death and pretend that they care and are listening.QUOTE]

Micheal Jackson had an all white Jury.You don't need 12 terrorist for a jury.You need to keep the ones who are guilty locked up,and you need to let the innocent go.Not all of them are terrorist.

I guess trampling over all arab countries is fine by you?You wont stop until we are the most hated country in the world,at least the muslim world.

You supported a war that had nothing to do with 9/11?There is no proof that Iraq had nothing to do with,or had any connection with Al-Qaeda,or 9/11.Where were most of the Highjackers from????Saudi's???

as you state the "Liberals say that we should get out of Iraq." No,your wrong.Most of them say we should have never have gone there.Think about it.We were in Afganistan they could have fought us there.Why then Iraq?NO WMD's,No link to 9/11...WHY????

If you listen to Rummie we could be there for 12 years.LOT 737-300 Do you have any kids?,Wait your bio says that your 16.Is this true?Wow,cool!You can enlist in 2 years.I'll make sure a recruiter comes to see you in Florida.Thats were your at right???Well,Im sure if you don't enlist you'll get drafted.Your at the prime age for the next 8 years??

Most of the Liberals like myself see where its going.Let me make it simple for you.12 years of insurgency followed up by us leaving with our tails between our legs anyway.thats how its been during every other insurgency.A civil war in coming.weather its now,or 12 years from now.

Bush is a liar.

cpal_747

Well said Dave. If only people would actually listen.

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LOT 737-300

[quote=psalover]Listen you unsympathetic morons.I can't believe that you guys would post crap like that on a post that is for morning.Now I see why people dislike the U.S.You know,I may not spell all that great,but I do have class.

Ok, let me try to explain what I ment. When I said I supported the war, what I mean is I suport the troops over there, that came out a bit badly worded when I first said it. Since we are over there, we might as well stay, at least until things calm down and it is stable. I'm personally hopeing that the US is not going to invade anymore countries, and things can easily get dealed out at a conference table. If you read my earlier post, then you would have known what I was saying, I said that I hope whoever did this will get caught and tried, and someone put in a comment that I would have had to contradict and give a reason to also. Why don't you just read that thread again.

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psalover

[quote=LOT 737-300] O.K. I buy that.The reason "The Liberals" want to pull out is becuase LIKE VIETNAMIt will never be stable as long as we are there.As Rummie stated this could go on for 12 years.Why,would you want your friends to die foe Bush's agenda?If you take 1700 that died so far X that buy 12 years thats 6800 KIDSFor what.Like Vietnam we will end up pulling out of a loser war that we should have never started.I understand.You feel for the innocent people there that will die after we leave,right.Your heart is in the right place,but what about the hundreds that die weekly right now by road side bombs?Do you think that they will stop dying if we leave?NO there will be a civil war,and innocent people will die.

There is no easy way to look at this.Its hard,but If we would have stuck to the plan to go into Afganistan instead of Iraq,got a hold of the true terrorist, Innocent U.S. soldiers wouldn't be dying in Iraq.We could be fighting in one country instead of two we would have a lot more U.N. Support,and we wouldn't be in a huge deficet.Bush lied for his own gain.

One last thing If the war is going sooooo good.The government wants to train over 100 Iraqi battalions before we leave.Thats sounds fair.....How many Iraqi battalions are ready to fight?How many have they trained since the invaision,and reconstruction?2!!!At this pace we should be out of there in 150 years.

And why is it that we can take a kid off the streets of St.Josephs,MO train hime and send him to war in 13 weeks,but it take us so much more time to train somebody who has been around war all his life?

One last thing If the war is going sooooo good.The government wants to train over 100 Iraqi battalions before we leave.Thats sounds fair.....How many Iraqi battalions are ready to fight?How many have they trained since the invaision,and reconstruction?2!!!At this pace we should be out of there in 150 years.

And why is it that we can take a kid off the streets of St.Josephs,MO train hime and send him to war in 13 weeks,but it take us so much more time to train somebody who has been around war all his life?

Am I not patriotic because I ask questions?

LOT 737-300

I ask myself these things everyday, really, we've been in Iraq for 2 years already, Vietnam went on for over 10 years if I am not mistaken. Also if I'm not mistaken, didn't they repeal the draft after the Vietnam War? As for training of the Iraqi troops, yes this will be the hardest part of their reconstuction of Iraq, as very few want to do it for the fear of getting killed in a attack.

Now as for the real reason for the Iraq invasion. I do not know it, as I've heard many versions from all sides, so I'm very much confused.

By the way, I would also like to say that I am not conservative nor liberal, I apologize if my post back in that thread really upset you. I really didn't want it to turn out like that, I even asked to get back on topic on that thread if you seen what I said, since I didn't want to turn it into a flame war.

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ARIUS

This is a good point. When it comes to war, the reasons should be clear cut to all citizens. There should not be many versions from many sides. The war on terrorists is clear cut, the war in Iraq is clear as mud. Like Viet Nam, public support will decline for the war in Iraq when costs of the fighting outweigh the benefits to America.

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psalover

LOT,after Vietnam they did repeal the Draft,but the congress can bring it back if they need to,and if enlistment keeps dropping they will have no choice.

Don't worry about offending me.Thats hard to do. I enjoy a good flame war.I know I threw you into this when I quoteed what you had wrote.I actually ment it to ALL those that dont have a sympathetic bone inthere body.That was not the time nor the place to twist what happened in London into "If it wasn't for bush" or "Its our fault,because were in Iraq" or any of that.I have my beliefs as you do as N2272V does.I disagree with him a lot,but I sometimes agree with him to.I just think we need to help our friends in Endland Morn.Give them a huge,and let them know "WE UNDERSTAND" ITS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT US!Thats the problem inthe U.S. today.We don't think about others.we only think about ourselves.If the conservatives are SOOO relegious,they need to get back to the Bible "LOVE THEY NAIBOR"


I am a "LIBERAL" and proud to say that I am.When did being a liberal become a bad thing,and unpatriotic?Becuase we question the Administration.When we question the intentions of this president?

Ya'll have a good day.

Hapag-Lloyd

[quote=LOT 737-300]
Now as for the real reason for the Iraq invasion. I do not know it, as I've heard many versions from all sides, so I'm very much confused.
QUOTE]

First of all, my sincerest condolences go to the families of this new terrorist attack. It was barbaric and inexcusable.

LOT, you say that you are not sure what to believe. Try Occam's razor. It is a term derived from phenomenology that states that if there are more than one reasons for anything, the simplest one is usually true. Which seems the simplest to YOU? You might also ask yourself "cui bono?". Who benefits from what is going on? You´d have to decide these questions for yourself, and without any spin, as that will limit your possibilities. Be objective about EVERYTHING.

What I find appalling is that the "War against Terror" has by now cost billions of Dollars, claimed scores of soldiers´ lives and evermore scores on civilians´ lives on both sides, yet has not achieved anything at all. Terrorists still carry out their attacks. Our cities are in greater danger than ever before.

A terrorist risesand falls with the public support he seeks and finds (or, hopefully, not). Those terror organizations that gave up, like Germany´s RAF, had next to zero public support. The Hamas terrorists, on the other hand, were and are considered heroes and freedom fighters. Instead of fighting down Iraq, maybe that money should have been spent for rooting out the financial supporters of terror, even if they are US allies like e.g. Pakistan (their secret service in particular) and Saudi Arabia, the terror organizations should have been cut off from the funding from these countries, and a propaganda "warfare" could have been started in the supportive areas, intended to swing public opinion (especially in Wahabite Saudi Arabia!) away from the terror organizations that call themselves "Al Quaida". Make it certain to these folks that terrorism is not cool, and that it won´t get them anywhere. Make their supporters betray them. Get preachers in the illiterate areas that tell a different version of Koran than the hate-preachers do. Make people literate, so that they are able to get their own information, and won´t have to rely on the hate preaching the Koran schools in northern Pakistan give them. Encourage them to think for themselves, instead of blind belief in the preachers´ words.

Have top notch muslim clerics openly, publicly apologize for the ill deeds done. Have these authorities say that the path of terror is not one a muslim should go. Expose the terrorists for what they really are - not muslim heroes, but cowardly guerilla fighters.

Dave, if you should ever come to the part of the world I live in, you´re invited for as many beers as you want. Tab´s on me.

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FlyNavy

Okay, for those who think there is going to be a draft is a MORON. I guess you know verry little about the armed forces if you think that is going to happen.

There are only two ways there would be a draft.

1. Some massive war which encompases the world (WWIII) in wich superpowers fight superpowers.
2. Canada attacks.

Also for those who think this is going to be like vietnam, again WAY off. There is almost nothing in common between the two. I would be more than happy to have a debate this. (Reason why this country owns is because we can do that).

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Hapag-Lloyd

Errr... what exactly does your last sentence ("Reason why...") mean?

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psalover

I dont think so there buddy,I know a little about the armed forces.I was in the U.S. Army.I was an 11B1P which in simple term 11B =Infantry 1P= Airborne.Did Basic at Ft Benning,along with Airborne school.I was in the first gulf war.I saw what its like there 120F is frickin HOT!!!.Most of the people over there will smile at you one second,and stick a knife in your back the next.There will be a draft.Maybe not for you sailers,but as the war gets worse they will have no choice,but to reinstate the draft.Not for all area's,but when the Army's enlistment goals keep droping they will have no choice.What are they going to do.Take a bunch of squids off the ship give them an M-16 and tell them to KILL????There recruitment goals would start dropping.

O.K. I have stated my case about the similarities to Vietnam.You tell me why its different.Lets debate.

FlyNavy

Aye, lets debate.

I understand were you might think the draft might be started up, you have to understand the mass poltical fallout from that. Also with every terrorist that we kill or they blow them selfs up im a car bomb or something like that, that is one less we have to worry about, and there numbers fall. Means we need less soldiers to fight the war. And the army is strong enough, there is no need for a draft. I think that is another scare tact that was put out in congress.

Another thing is the fact the terrorist are not supplied by a superpower like it was in Vietnam. So there never will a mass army ready to attack Iraq like there was for South Vietnam. Most of the weapons they terrorist are using today are old weapons made by the soviets that were made back in the 1970s-1980s era. We have over a 20 year advantage over them. We can now put bombs through a window in a house unlike the days of of Vietnam in which it took 6 A-4 Skyhawks to hit one SAM.

Also another thing we have is surrport of most of the Iraq people. I was talking to a sergent that just came back from Iraq and said that more than 95% of the people like them, and the other 5% of them could care less. The people who are makin it an absolute bit ch to all the people who live there are from out of country. I understand there will always be those people who despise of our country, but that is normal in all countries. During the Vietnam war we did not have the surport of the north and some of the south vietnamese (sp?) people unlike the Iraqis today.

The death rate of a soldier Iraq is much lower, in Vietnam it was about 1%. Today it is about .1%. The soilders and marines that are there still need to be on there toes, but it is much safer for them to do there job.

And one of the most major points is the Vietnam war was a Civil War, the Iraq war is now just an insurgency.

Now Im not going to go on how you are a LooneyLiberal, beacause the liberals have some good points, as the the conservatives also have some good points. I love being an centralist.

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24r

I don't normally get involved with these type of posts. If Canada attacks now that's funny. We have helicopters that are outdated and keep getting grounded, submarines that catch on fire. The navy is also outdated. The government here keeps cutting funds to the armed services. I think you would have a better chance of an attack from Mars than Canada.

Mark

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winged racer

I suppose that I may alienate a few people here but having served in Vietnam as a crew chief on helicopters in the marines in the northern ICORE of that country not many of you here on this forum can remember that Kennedy got us involved in that quamire and of course Johnson just kept feeding the fire.

The truth be known it was an unwinable war because the politians were running it, not the Generals. The concern was that if we would have gone into Vietnam full force and literally taken over that entire country Washington felt that the Chinese and possibly the Russians would get involved and thus a much more escalated conflict. Had Senator Goldwater won the presidency in 1964 I honestly believe that he would have either invaded the country and taken it over or, better yet he would have withdrawn and not gotton us involved in that country which in the end cost the lives of over 50,000 American soldiers......I know what war is like. I flew in and out of many 'hot' zones and saw the carnage on both sides.

What faces us now is somewhat different. The terrorist have quite frankly declared jihad which is a mild term meaning war. Their attempt to have the entire Moslem world turn against anyone who is not moslem and commit acts of atrocities against them. The terrorist do not understand that human nature wants peace and war and conflict. If we pull out of Iraq then we will have handed over to the terrorist the greatest victory possible. And that is that they and their tactics are sucessful.

Well I for one firmly believe that had we not gone into Iraq Saddam or some other terrorist sponsored nation (like Syria or Iran) would have stepped up the sponsorship of terrorism and by now we here in American would have had a catastrophic attack be it a dirty bomb, atom bomb or mass murder of citizens on a grand scale such as we have witnessed recently in England.

Its not hard to imagine that Saddam Hussein could persuade his 'neighbors' to store or hide his weapons of mass destruction until a future date similary like he did just before the beginning of the first Gulf as he asked Iran for a pact of neutrality and flew some of his fighter jets over to Iran for 'safe keeping'.

Some of you folks need to be reminded that if Irag hadn't of happen then perchaps we would have never found out about the treachery of the Pakistany scientist that betrayed even his own country to give both Libya and Iran and possibly the North Koreans the needed know how for atomic weapons. The regime in TEHRAN has but one goal in its mind....the total destruction of the west and everything that it stands for....including Israel.

Before this is all over this new Iranian president is bent on destroying the west and becoming some kind of 'king of prussia' and my fear is that as Iran gets closer to having nucleur weapons Israel will indeed attack them and attempt to destroy their nucleur capabilities.....just like they destroyed the nucleur power plant that Saddam Hussein was building.

If that comes to be then believe me this world as we know will certainly be a very scary place to be. Irag in and of itself was/is only part of the puzzle.

Terrorism in my opinion is worse that communism. I say this because at least Russia new and understood the real meaning of 'mutual destruction.' The terrorist quite frankly don't care about life on this planet. Their supposed belief is in the 'after-life'.

By the way under president Johnson the military buildup on Vietnam reached a figure of over 500,000 service men and women. After Nixon was voted in he began to bring troops and by the time of his resignation he has opened the door to communist China for dialoge and had brought home over 200,000 troops. After Gerald Ford became president he saw the needless death of young American men and ended America's involvement.

By the way in recent interviews with North Vietamese generals their opinions were that had the American people 'backed' the US efforts in southeast Asia they could not have won the war.........when the 'liberal' press night after night bombarded the American people with the deaths of the soldiers and the generation that I grew up with protested the war this gave the enemy resolve to fight on and continue on because the American people would soon grow tired. The same approach is being taken here by the terrorist however the difference here is that the terrorist will not settle for anything less than total annihilation of the west (mainly the US).

The bottom line here is simple..........its either them or us. I'am on the side of us and if being in the middle east to fight them there instead of here is whats called for then so much the better. If not then think about this....

Imagine getting a call at work from your wife or husband at work that they just received a phone call from the police that one or more school buses were blown up and that your child was one of the casualities......just think about it. winged racer

psalover

Winged Racer,I hope all is good where you are at.I want to thank you for your service in Vietnam,I consider you a friend,and take what you say seriously.You make some strong points.I only have a couple of problems with SOME of what you have said.I agree,That these terrorist are raised to destray the west at any price.They have hated us for thousands of years.

Going into Iraq served no purpose.We were,and still are fighting them in Afganistan,where I might add we had a lot more "Liberal" Support as well as U.N. support.

I also have a problem with this statment,and please understand this. Who do we think we are that we can take the fight there?How would you feel as an Iraqi when you hear things like were not fighting them on our land.Geez,I guess the Iraqi's are second class comparred to us?Ya there is an insurgency there,brought on by the U.S. invaiding a muslim nation.We could have taken this war to Afganistan (the war on terrorist)where I would be a 100% supporter,and was a 100% supporter of.

FlyNavy,I probably wouldn't use this one The U.S. are still using the same M-16's from when I was in.as for your Bombs thorough a window.Thats very true,but When was the last time we did that?This is an Urban war Door to Door searches.

I respect whatboth of you have stated.I respect both of you.I also agree that there are some good republicans,and republican issue's and some real bonehead Democrate issues.When I say I am a liberal,thats because My free thinking is liberal.I like people.I don't care what religous backround,I dont care if someone is gay.If you want to marry the same sex,WHO CARES?As long as you do not directly affect My life,or endanger me,or my family,or others,or break a "Real Law" like robbing a bank,do what you want.

one last thing,What happened to "If you harbor a terrorist" that bush stated?Isn't that what Pakistan is now doing,Why isn't Bush on Musharif's butt about that?They know where Bin Laddin is.Porter Goss knows where he is.Hell, Musharif took over Pakistan after his flunkies threw out the old government after a coo.

In My honest oinion,its not about the war,Your right we can't just leave,and I woudn't expect us to,but my problem is the the real agenda of this White House,there plans up to this date,and the things they have done and said in the past.

Bush has lied to us so many time,and most of the country just goes along with it.

Bush lied to us about WMD,and the cylinders that stated that were used to make nukes were the wrong size (we Bought it)
Bush lies about Iraq qnd stated that they were tied to 9/11.Now they stated that there was no connection.(we bought it)
Bush then states that this is about liberating the people.(this war was never sold to us about liberating the people)
Bus critisizes Clinton in 99 for not having an exit stradigy in Kosavo (where we were greated as liberators)But yet says that we don't need an exit stradigy for Iraq
Valerie Payne Wilson's Husband said something against the Bush White House,so someone ( Carol Rowe main suspect) in the Bush White house leaks her very sensative Top secret Cia info out to the press risking her life.
Rummie,who stated that all option were wieghed before attacking Iraq,even an Oil mote around bagdad,but when asked if a strong insurgency was on that list he states "I Don't remember"How can you remember an Oil mote that didnt come true,but when a "strong insurgency that may have been on the list comes true,You don't remember.
Why is Haliburton who is under investigation,(By the Bush White House ) for criminal activity,and lierally lost millions of dollors,who knows how just was awarded a % BILLION DOLLOR contract.Thats like paying someone to fix your house,and they tear it down,just to pay them more money to fix the pool.Thats just crazy,but most people just say oh,well.

Its not about Iraq,thats the side issue,its about the lies.

FlyNavy

You seem to think that Bush lied to the amercian people just to go start a war. The truth is just we had he wrong info, all your doing is blaming the top guy when it was the lower guys (CIA, NSA, ect.) who screwed up this time.

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psalover

Your right when you say that it was CIA,NSA,and ect,BUTwho is responsible for these groups?What happens when a corperations head takes bad advice,and screws up the company.The board gets rid of them.

I think that Bush Lied about Iraq to go into Iraq for several reasons.
a)Bush started war with Iraq to finish dads Job.
b)Bush started war because its good for big corperations like Haliburton (who just recieved a 5 billion dollor no bid contract while under investigation)
c)Bash started war with Iraq for OIL to beable to have some control over it.

there is a lot of fuzzyness over WMD's and the authenticity to intel,but the Downy street memo's are very powerful proof the G.W. wanted to go to without legitimet Intel.There a lot more then just that.Im for the soldiers,but to be risking there lives an a lie.How would you feel being over there risking your life,just to realize that you were over there based on a lie?I would feel betrayed.

Hapag-Lloyd

These fellows are supposed to be top notch, best of the best, hi-tech intelligence. Either they told the truth, and Bush lied, or they didn´t have the hint of a clue, and Bush perpetrated the incompetence of these guys. Either way, it´s time for Mr President to come clean - and, if the second scenario is true, hire some new guys to get their job done, and fire the old ones.

Or, listen to the German and French secret services, who told the Americans all the time what turned out to be true.

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winged racer

I just want to add that as far as I'am concerned the bigger picture is this:

The two nations responsible for sponsorship of most of the terrorism in the world today are Iran and Syria. Until those two nations either do a turn about or change regimes terrorism will continue with us for a long time.

I just wish that all free nations could see and realize this and help to 'distinguish' the terrorism that now is all around us. The sooner all freedom loving nations realize that this is a fight to the finish the sooner we can end all this inhumane acts of violence.

This country needs to realize that if a dictator were in the white house life here in America would be a lot worse. Anyway by 'taking out Iraq' in effect we have positioned ourselves right in the middle between the two worst enemys of freedom and love for fellow man and should it be necessary, we are position to do whatever is necessary to take them out also.

Again I honestly believe that before this is over Israel will have no choice but to confront Iran and possibly even declare war. Iran's first deed against free people will be to destroy Israel with an atomic weapon if given half the chance especially with this jerk new president. I see very dark clouds ahead before I see much in the way of sunshine.

Enough said. Need to get back to talking about model airplanes........WR

JustPlaneCrazy

They are very happy we have removed Saddam and that we are there, quit believing everything you see on the Liberal news

I spoke with a Sergeant who just returned from Iraq, he says that 95% of Iraqi's want us there and do not want us to leave, they are thankful that Saddam is gone and their families will not be executed by his regime. He says the other 5% just don't care.

He states that most all the terrorists are from OTHER countries, not Iraq.

No matter the reason for going, we are there now and the Iraqi people are grateful, no matter what you think....

Now, carry on my Looney-Liberal friend