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gospodin · 05-13-2007, 02:22 PM

Heavy, the Soviet Union was not poised to strike the Germans in 1939. If Stalin had goals in Europe, it would not have been until 1950 that the Russians would have felt ready to make a move on Germany. They had been quietly building their army and air force, but did not have very good discipline in their military due to the purges of the 1930's, where many of the officers were killed or sent to the gulags. The alliance that Germany proposed gave Stalin the green light to attack his neighbors early, and even so, suffered heavy losses against the Finns. US assistance during the war helped to build Russia up even more, and Russian ingenuity (along with slave labor) moved the industries to the other side of the Urals to protect them from bombing. The Russians would have gone into Europe eventually, that's true. But they would have been careful to preserve as much of German industry and society as they could to further the cause of Soviet domination and the glory of Russia. They would have terrorized Germany, broken it if Hitler had not built his own war machine. Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler ever thought about being, but he would not have annihilated Germany, it would not have served his purpose. Just as Germany would not have been able to destroy Russia, regardless of when Hitler put Barbarossa into operation. Russia is just too big. The best he would have done is to make Russia sue for peace, which was what he really wanted anyway, a helpless Russia. If the US and Britain had not already occupied a large potion of Germany, Russia would have taken all of it, and whatever other countries Stalin could get hold of. So both sides, as you pointed out, Heavy, were equally responsible for the tragedy of WWII, and either one would have been terrible if it had conquered all of Europe. Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that. Like many Americans don't see what horrors the US inflicted on Native Americans, Philippinos, or the immigrants into our country. American history books don't say much about that. Reading history has opened my eyes to a lot of the things the average person knows little or nothing about. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, and I don't know it all, but I have gleaned a lot from 35 years of avid study. And I say again to those who may be offended by my comments or observations: everything I've said can be backed by books written by experts from many countries, and if they don't know history, nobody does.

05-13-2007, 02:22 PM	#15
gospodin Diecast Blasphemer Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ceti Alpha V Age: 52 Posts: 3,237	Re: Happy Victory Day! Heavy, the Soviet Union was not poised to strike the Germans in 1939. If Stalin had goals in Europe, it would not have been until 1950 that the Russians would have felt ready to make a move on Germany. They had been quietly building their army and air force, but did not have very good discipline in their military due to the purges of the 1930's, where many of the officers were killed or sent to the gulags. The alliance that Germany proposed gave Stalin the green light to attack his neighbors early, and even so, suffered heavy losses against the Finns. US assistance during the war helped to build Russia up even more, and Russian ingenuity (along with slave labor) moved the industries to the other side of the Urals to protect them from bombing. The Russians would have gone into Europe eventually, that's true. But they would have been careful to preserve as much of German industry and society as they could to further the cause of Soviet domination and the glory of Russia. They would have terrorized Germany, broken it if Hitler had not built his own war machine. Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler ever thought about being, but he would not have annihilated Germany, it would not have served his purpose. Just as Germany would not have been able to destroy Russia, regardless of when Hitler put Barbarossa into operation. Russia is just too big. The best he would have done is to make Russia sue for peace, which was what he really wanted anyway, a helpless Russia. If the US and Britain had not already occupied a large potion of Germany, Russia would have taken all of it, and whatever other countries Stalin could get hold of. So both sides, as you pointed out, Heavy, were equally responsible for the tragedy of WWII, and either one would have been terrible if it had conquered all of Europe. Guys like Don Clipper and Hapag see only the horror the Russians inflicted, they don't see the balance of responsibility that Germany had for all of that. Like many Americans don't see what horrors the US inflicted on Native Americans, Philippinos, or the immigrants into our country. American history books don't say much about that. Reading history has opened my eyes to a lot of the things the average person knows little or nothing about. I don't claim to be an expert by any means, and I don't know it all, but I have gleaned a lot from 35 years of avid study. And I say again to those who may be offended by my comments or observations: everything I've said can be backed by books written by experts from many countries, and if they don't know history, nobody does. __________________ Steve The one thing I've learned on this forum is "Don't argue with an idiot". Other people reading may not be able to tell the difference....