What exactly is "better" about the newer DW MD-11's?

David Hingtgen · 10-21-2001, 02:41 AM

I ask this because an American MD-11 is WAY high on my want list, and was likely to be my very first 1:400 purchase, but after going through the archives, there seems to be LOTS of early DW MD-11 bashing,(to the point that it convinced me not to buy it) but quite a few people seem to like the AA MD-11. The only MD-11 I've ever been on was AA (N1760A) and I even took that trip soley to fly on an MD-11. So---are there actual mold differences, or is it merely printing technique, etc. Also---could the landing gear from a new DW MD-11 be put into the older one? (Or I could just display it on the stand with its gear up--how good are the retracted gear doors?) I looked at Brinkley's pics---well, the left main gear is crooked, but other than that it looks fine to me. Is the solid grey paint on the tail hiding some horrendous #2 engine deformity or what? Or are people really that big on cockpit windows? As long as I don't sit it next to another Douglas trijet, nobody will notice.

ltu1542hvy · 10-21-2001, 12:31 PM

The cockpit windows on older DW MD-11s really are THAT bad, and the ones on the newer ones are really that much better. DW has started rereleasing some of their models with their newer moulds, such as the JAL 777-300 and JAL MD-11, and who knows, maybe they will re-release the American MD-11 as well.

- Bill

Sgt Caribou · 10-21-2001, 12:32 PM

The AA MD-11 was not bad with regard to printing and finish, the only thing to note is that it is chromed, so has that very bright gold-like finish. If that doesn't matter to you I would recommend it. Landing gear - the main doors probably are the right shape to match with the new gear but have a structure in the well to accept the old gear, so it would not fit without mods (and I would not bother attempting it). Maybe you can find a more recent MD-11 with similar painting on the wings and substitute the old wing for the new, then you can make a boneyard model with the old bits!

Brian

David Hingtgen · 10-21-2001, 02:14 PM

This is the second time I've seen "gold" mentioned about DW---none of my chrome DW planes are gold at all. So does the AA MD-11 have some sort of gold tint, or is it the same as all the other chrome plane? And BTW--I buy all my AA planes chrome--compared to all the AA planes I have photos of, they are that shiny---the MD-11 I flew on was so shiny it reflected the clouds in the sky on its skin. The reason I picked up a chrome MD-82 was because the one I was on relfected it's own T-tail on the fuselage--and only the chrome version is shiny enough to do that. OK--cockpit windows---what exactly? Too high? Too low? Wrong shape? What? Thanks for any and all answers.

David Hingtgen

justin · 10-21-2001, 02:41 PM

Hi, it is true that DW have made a huge improvement in their MD11, but it always was a nice model IMO. Area's improved include
landing gear
cockpit window print
printed details like rain strips, cargo doors etc.
sharper and more detailed livery application
Now, while this has made a big improvement, it doesn't detract from the old releases being nice models, in fact two of my favourite 1/400 models and two I would not part with are the China Eastern MD11 & MD11F. So if you see an old one in a livery you want, I'd not worry about buying it.

Justin

egonzinc · 10-21-2001, 02:43 PM

No gold tint, plain chrome. Chrome makes a good representation of a new AA aircraft, as you say they are "almost" THAT shiny.
The switching of wings is an interesting thought!
Would like to see an AA re-releases, but there have been enough MD11's for a while...
E

David Hingtgen · 10-21-2001, 04:21 PM

Electroplating is the method used to apply the chrome finish. Basically you use tanks of acid, dissolve the metal you want to apply, and zap electricity through. The dissolved metal (chrome for planes) goes and attaches itself to the other metal in a very thin, very even layer.

Sentinel Chicken · 10-21-2001, 08:18 PM

Electrolysis? Isn't that what Moose uses to get rid of that unsightly back hair? (Sorry Moose, I was gettin' tired of picking on BillG...

)

David, I have the American MD-11 in my collection and it was my first MD-11 and that was before the upgraded mould came out. Honestly, if DW released the same livery on the newer mould, I'd buy that one and put the one I have of an older mould either in my office (I won't be so heartbroken if one my employees takes it for a spin in the pattern and lands a bit too hard) or as a gift to someone else.

The later MD-11 mould is very good. The early MD-11 releases didn't suffer so much from a crummy mould as lousy printing, lack of details, and stick-like landing gear.

Here's my beef about my AA MD-11:
1. Windows are pale grey/white, no frames. Looks like every single window shade has been pulled down.
2. Windows printed where there should be deleted windows.
3. Glaring lack of printed detail, especially with the passenger doors.
4. Main landing gear way too flimsy looking and lacking in doors.
5. Chrome finish too bluish. Not so apparent when by itself, but obvious when with other AA models.
6. Nose looks too shallow on the underside to me.

Now, that being said, if you're dying for an AA MD-11, this is the only choice and it doesn't look too bad on the stand sans landing gear.

If this gets released on the later, much improved mould/printing, then definitely go and get it. That is, if you can wait.

David Hingtgen · 10-21-2001, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sentinel Chicken

[/b]
1. Windows are pale grey/white, no frames. Looks like every single window shade has been pulled down.
2. Windows printed where there should be deleted windows.
3. Glaring lack of printed detail, especially with the passenger doors.
4. Main landing gear way too flimsy looking and lacking in doors.
5. Chrome finish too bluish. Not so apparent when by itself, but obvious when with other AA models.
6. Nose looks too shallow on the underside to me.

[/b]

1. Doesn't bug me much.
2. See above.
3. Due to the bare metal scheme, AA's planes (real life) don't show detail as much as say a pure white plane. So that doesn't bug me either.
4. Going to display gear up.
5. If ever there was an AA plane that was bluish, it's the MD-11.
6. Now is that an actual mold problem, or just the way the stripes converge at the front?

So, now, with that said, would you still have any big complaints about the MD-11?

ltu1542hvy · 10-21-2001, 08:43 PM

Well, for me the main complaint are still the cockpit windows. They apparently don't bother some people, but they do bother me. If I had a digital camera, I would do a side by side comparison of the AA MD-11 and, say, the Jet-X Delta MD-11 so you could see the difference for yourself and decide whether that would bother you or not. Could maybe somebody out there in DAC land who does have those models and a digital camera handy do a quick comparo for us?

Thanks,
Bill

David Hingtgen · 10-21-2001, 10:48 PM

Well, I just lined up Brinkley's pics of the AA MD-11 and the DW NW DC-10, and while they're very different, I don't really see the AA one as being WRONG. Also checked the DW China Airlines MD-11. While they're much better than the AA MD-11, I think a big part of it is black vs grey windows. The biggest actual shape difference is the side windows, and whether it has a frame of not makes a big difference--the China Eastern and AA cockpits look quite different, due to having a frame. And hey--compare the DW NW D10 and the CI M11---they look totally different, even though they should be the same (unless DW uses different prints for the same cockpit)--NW doesn't have a frame--it goes straight from window black to cheatline white, whereas the CI one has black, then the silver frame, then the lavender.

And hey--there won't be a perfect MD-11 or DC-10 window unless someone redoes the mold--know why? Because unlike most other planes out there, the DC-10/MD-11 has flat-panel cockpit windows. Can't print a window on a curved 1:400 nose and expect the lines to match up just like the real flat windowed DC-10.

::goes and looks at my -11 pics from my trip to Miami:: Hey--I KNEW I wasn't nuts when I thought the all-light grey passenger windows looked right---the MD-11 I flew on DID have every single window shade down. So that's actually perfectly fine, but it will cause problems if I display it on the stand, gear up.

I'm 99% certain I'll buy it. The only way I'll be really disappointed is if DW re-releases it with the new improvements within the next 3 months.

ltu1542hvy · 10-21-2001, 10:52 PM

Hey, all I was doing was to give my opinion, which is just that - an opinion. No need to get defensive. I agree that no 1:400 model is perfect, nor do I expect that, but some are far better than others. If you like the AA MD-11, then by all means, buy it.

- Bill

David Hingtgen · 10-22-2001, 12:54 AM

Umm, I wasn't replying to YOU, I was just making random comments to whoever's reading this thread. Sorry if you took it that I was bashing you in some way.

Delftblue · 10-27-2001, 05:32 PM

Now I was able to get Dragons new JAL MD-11 and take some shots of the new and the older one - I think you can clearly see what Bill discribed above: The 'cockpit' is the main thing of an airliners face...

And please also notice other improvements, like cabin-windows, more correct colors, door-imprints (nice grey and white) and take a look at the different nose-gears - they are also a part of 'the face'!

David Hingtgen · 10-27-2001, 06:09 PM

Hey, thanks for the pics----anyone can see the the side windows of the cockpit on the new ones are the most improved (the old ones are just plain wrong)--one of my points was that the frame can make a big impact--and it does. Also, the AA MD-11 and the JAL MD-11 have quite different cockpit prints---I'm thinking the JAL and AA MD-11's are "early" and "late" versions of the "old" MD-11. The early JAL MD-11 IS horrible, cockpit-wise. If the AA one looked like that I wouldn't have considered buying it. Also--those pics really show off the landing gear improvements as well.

Snapper · 10-27-2001, 06:10 PM

Hey I dont know about the AA MD-11 but Delftblue's photos above have convinced me to go out and buy the new JAL MD-11 for sure!

ZX1100F1 · 10-27-2001, 06:18 PM

How many more tries will it take Dragon to get it right? (or, even close.)

What the hey, you can have an evolving collection, DML at it's early stages then later at the middle age and etc..........and etc......and etc.......................

Dave

Shawn Moynihan · 10-28-2001, 01:18 AM

Hey David,

all I can say is that when I look at that JAL older model it makes my AA MD-11 look like sh*t.

My AA MD-11 cockpit windows are BAD !! It is the absolutely worst , well the 777 IS REALLY BAD AS WELL.

But, they are alot worse than what I have seen considered older printing.

I guess I must have gotten a really early model .

If Dragon does EVER release the AA MD-11 as a newer model, I defintely will get it .

By the way, I purchased mine when Dragon was just coming onto the market,.... that was 1998.

Oh ! and Dave Aaron ?
Uh ......? I wouldn't necessarily consider it all that bad that Dragon decided to improve over 4 years ??
That is NOTHING compared to Herpa !! They will come out with 5 or even as many as 10 different releases of the same d*m model.

Yea, it sucks they are not as good as Gemini, but they sure as hell have improved quite a bit in the past 4 years. That newer release of the JAL is kick *ss for what we use to get.

Jao · 10-28-2001, 02:48 AM

Well............I just have to say I like the MD11 moulds of Dragon.

10-21-2001, 02:41 AM	#1
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	What exactly is "better" about the newer DW MD-11's? I ask this because an American MD-11 is WAY high on my want list, and was likely to be my very first 1:400 purchase, but after going through the archives, there seems to be LOTS of early DW MD-11 bashing,(to the point that it convinced me not to buy it) but quite a few people seem to like the AA MD-11. The only MD-11 I've ever been on was AA (N1760A) and I even took that trip soley to fly on an MD-11. So---are there actual mold differences, or is it merely printing technique, etc. Also---could the landing gear from a new DW MD-11 be put into the older one? (Or I could just display it on the stand with its gear up--how good are the retracted gear doors?) I looked at Brinkley's pics---well, the left main gear is crooked, but other than that it looks fine to me. Is the solid grey paint on the tail hiding some horrendous #2 engine deformity or what? Or are people really that big on cockpit windows? As long as I don't sit it next to another Douglas trijet, nobody will notice.

10-21-2001, 12:32 PM	#3
Sgt Caribou Insane Collector Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA, eh Age: 45 Posts: 1,663	Used to have one The AA MD-11 was not bad with regard to printing and finish, the only thing to note is that it is chromed, so has that very bright gold-like finish. If that doesn't matter to you I would recommend it. Landing gear - the main doors probably are the right shape to match with the new gear but have a structure in the well to accept the old gear, so it would not fit without mods (and I would not bother attempting it). Maybe you can find a more recent MD-11 with similar painting on the wings and substitute the old wing for the new, then you can make a boneyard model with the old bits! Brian

10-21-2001, 08:18 PM	#8
Sentinel Chicken Go-Getters Go Ozark Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: DFW/THE GREAT STATE OF TEXAS Posts: 4,167	Yeah, you know about that American MD-11... Electrolysis? Isn't that what Moose uses to get rid of that unsightly back hair? (Sorry Moose, I was gettin' tired of picking on BillG...) David, I have the American MD-11 in my collection and it was my first MD-11 and that was before the upgraded mould came out. Honestly, if DW released the same livery on the newer mould, I'd buy that one and put the one I have of an older mould either in my office (I won't be so heartbroken if one my employees takes it for a spin in the pattern and lands a bit too hard) or as a gift to someone else. The later MD-11 mould is very good. The early MD-11 releases didn't suffer so much from a crummy mould as lousy printing, lack of details, and stick-like landing gear. Here's my beef about my AA MD-11: 1. Windows are pale grey/white, no frames. Looks like every single window shade has been pulled down. 2. Windows printed where there should be deleted windows. 3. Glaring lack of printed detail, especially with the passenger doors. 4. Main landing gear way too flimsy looking and lacking in doors. 5. Chrome finish too bluish. Not so apparent when by itself, but obvious when with other AA models. 6. Nose looks too shallow on the underside to me. Now, that being said, if you're dying for an AA MD-11, this is the only choice and it doesn't look too bad on the stand sans landing gear. If this gets released on the later, much improved mould/printing, then definitely go and get it. That is, if you can wait. __________________ *Piss on noise abatement!*

10-27-2001, 05:32 PM	#14
Delftblue Insane Collector Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 1,010	Face to Face photos Now I was able to get Dragons new JAL MD-11 and take some shots of the new and the older one - I think you can clearly see what Bill discribed above: The 'cockpit' is the main thing of an airliners face... And please also notice other improvements, like cabin-windows, more correct colors, door-imprints (nice grey and white) and take a look at the different nose-gears - they are also a part of 'the face'! Last edited by Delftblue; 10-27-2001 at 06:30 PM.

10-28-2001, 01:18 AM	#18
Shawn Moynihan Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Seattle,WA,USA Age: 41 Posts: 265	Hey David, all I can say is that when I look at that JAL older model it makes my AA MD-11 look like sht. My AA MD-11 cockpit windows are BAD !! It is the absolutely worst , well the 777 IS REALLY BAD AS WELL. But, they are alot worse than what I have seen considered older printing. I guess I must have gotten a really early model . If Dragon does EVER release the AA MD-11 as a newer model, I defintely will get it . By the way, I purchased mine when Dragon was just coming onto the market,.... that was 1998. Oh ! and Dave Aaron ? Uh ......? I wouldn't necessarily consider it all that bad that Dragon decided to improve over 4 years ?? That is NOTHING compared to Herpa !! They will come out with 5 or even as many as 10 different releases of the same dm model. Yea, it sucks they are not as good as Gemini, but they sure as hell have improved quite a bit in the past 4 years. That newer release of the JAL is kick *ss for what we use to get. __________________ "Gemini, Please Wien me from the cravings of a certain 73-200"!!

10-21-2001, 12:31 PM	#2
ltu1542hvy Master Collector Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Durham, North Carolina Age: 42 Posts: 738	The cockpit windows on older DW MD-11s really are THAT bad, and the ones on the newer ones are really that much better. DW has started rereleasing some of their models with their newer moulds, such as the JAL 777-300 and JAL MD-11, and who knows, maybe they will re-release the American MD-11 as well. - Bill

10-21-2001, 02:14 PM	#4
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	This is the second time I've seen "gold" mentioned about DW---none of my chrome DW planes are gold at all. So does the AA MD-11 have some sort of gold tint, or is it the same as all the other chrome plane? And BTW--I buy all my AA planes chrome--compared to all the AA planes I have photos of, they are that shiny---the MD-11 I flew on was so shiny it reflected the clouds in the sky on its skin. The reason I picked up a chrome MD-82 was because the one I was on relfected it's own T-tail on the fuselage--and only the chrome version is shiny enough to do that. OK--cockpit windows---what exactly? Too high? Too low? Wrong shape? What? Thanks for any and all answers. David Hingtgen

10-21-2001, 02:41 PM	#5
justin Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,005	Hi, it is true that DW have made a huge improvement in their MD11, but it always was a nice model IMO. Area's improved include landing gear cockpit window print printed details like rain strips, cargo doors etc. sharper and more detailed livery application Now, while this has made a big improvement, it doesn't detract from the old releases being nice models, in fact two of my favourite 1/400 models and two I would not part with are the China Eastern MD11 & MD11F. So if you see an old one in a livery you want, I'd not worry about buying it. Justin

10-21-2001, 02:43 PM	#6
egonzinc Insane Collector Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Guaynabo,Puerto Rico, USA Age: 52 Posts: 1,732	No gold tint, plain chrome. Chrome makes a good representation of a new AA aircraft, as you say they are "almost" THAT shiny. The switching of wings is an interesting thought! Would like to see an AA re-releases, but there have been enough MD11's for a while... E

10-21-2001, 04:21 PM	#7
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	Electroplating is the method used to apply the chrome finish. Basically you use tanks of acid, dissolve the metal you want to apply, and zap electricity through. The dissolved metal (chrome for planes) goes and attaches itself to the other metal in a very thin, very even layer.

10-21-2001, 08:43 PM	#10
ltu1542hvy Master Collector Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Durham, North Carolina Age: 42 Posts: 738	Well, for me the main complaint are still the cockpit windows. They apparently don't bother some people, but they do bother me. If I had a digital camera, I would do a side by side comparison of the AA MD-11 and, say, the Jet-X Delta MD-11 so you could see the difference for yourself and decide whether that would bother you or not. Could maybe somebody out there in DAC land who does have those models and a digital camera handy do a quick comparo for us? Thanks, Bill

10-21-2001, 10:48 PM	#11
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	Well, I just lined up Brinkley's pics of the AA MD-11 and the DW NW DC-10, and while they're very different, I don't really see the AA one as being WRONG. Also checked the DW China Airlines MD-11. While they're much better than the AA MD-11, I think a big part of it is black vs grey windows. The biggest actual shape difference is the side windows, and whether it has a frame of not makes a big difference--the China Eastern and AA cockpits look quite different, due to having a frame. And hey--compare the DW NW D10 and the CI M11---they look totally different, even though they should be the same (unless DW uses different prints for the same cockpit)--NW doesn't have a frame--it goes straight from window black to cheatline white, whereas the CI one has black, then the silver frame, then the lavender. And hey--there won't be a perfect MD-11 or DC-10 window unless someone redoes the mold--know why? Because unlike most other planes out there, the DC-10/MD-11 has flat-panel cockpit windows. Can't print a window on a curved 1:400 nose and expect the lines to match up just like the real flat windowed DC-10. ::goes and looks at my -11 pics from my trip to Miami:: Hey--I KNEW I wasn't nuts when I thought the all-light grey passenger windows looked right---the MD-11 I flew on DID have every single window shade down. So that's actually perfectly fine, but it will cause problems if I display it on the stand, gear up. I'm 99% certain I'll buy it. The only way I'll be really disappointed is if DW re-releases it with the new improvements within the next 3 months.

10-21-2001, 10:52 PM	#12
ltu1542hvy Master Collector Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Durham, North Carolina Age: 42 Posts: 738	Hey, all I was doing was to give my opinion, which is just that - an opinion. No need to get defensive. I agree that no 1:400 model is perfect, nor do I expect that, but some are far better than others. If you like the AA MD-11, then by all means, buy it. - Bill

10-22-2001, 12:54 AM	#13
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	Umm, I wasn't replying to YOU, I was just making random comments to whoever's reading this thread. Sorry if you took it that I was bashing you in some way.

10-27-2001, 06:09 PM	#15
David Hingtgen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,928	Hey, thanks for the pics----anyone can see the the side windows of the cockpit on the new ones are the most improved (the old ones are just plain wrong)--one of my points was that the frame can make a big impact--and it does. Also, the AA MD-11 and the JAL MD-11 have quite different cockpit prints---I'm thinking the JAL and AA MD-11's are "early" and "late" versions of the "old" MD-11. The early JAL MD-11 IS horrible, cockpit-wise. If the AA one looked like that I wouldn't have considered buying it. Also--those pics really show off the landing gear improvements as well.

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10-27-2001, 06:10 PM	#16
Snapper Junior Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 25	Hey I dont know about the AA MD-11 but Delftblue's photos above have convinced me to go out and buy the new JAL MD-11 for sure!

10-27-2001, 06:18 PM	#17
ZX1100F1 Buford T. Justice Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Lat:40.33.269 Lon:-111.55.806 Posts: 2,004	How many more tries will it take Dragon to get it right? (or, even close.) What the hey, you can have an evolving collection, DML at it's early stages then later at the middle age and etc..........and etc......and etc....................... Dave

10-28-2001, 02:48 AM	#19
Jao Insane Collector Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines Age: 31 Posts: 1,771	Well............I just have to say I like the MD11 moulds of Dragon. __________________ JAO Please visit my webshots for more pictures.Thank you. http://community.webshots.com/user/jaopao http://www.wings900.com/gallery/show...t=1&ppuser=602