What improvements next?

DirtyBird · 08-16-2001, 12:19 PM

What do you think is the next big thing for 1:400 scale manufaturers to improve on their molds?

The mold accuracies as far as the overall fuselage shapes go are getting much better and the printing details in my opinion are really incredible, but there is room for improvement for all the manufacturers in this scale. Although I know its almost impossible to do with the current casting techniques, I would eventually like to see strakes and fins on my models, I think this is the one thing that might give the edge to either manufacturer, well I take that back this and more detailed landing gear. We all pretty much know what happened to Herpa 1:500 when they didnt improve on their molds, StarJets came along and basically took the whole collectors market out of theirs hands with better mold accuracy and scaled landing gear. Well I think the manufacturer that gets the next big improvement will exact the same blow on their competitor.

cyfler · 08-16-2001, 12:34 PM

Wow, good topic you dirty bird

A huge step for GJ would be to eliminate the tail seam. DW has a bunch of Airbus molds in desperate need of revamping. Aside from that, we've seen more detailing evolve and overall better quality but there's always room for improvement.

ANG MING CHUANG · 08-16-2001, 01:05 PM

Why is it that even GJ has to make the vertical stabliser in plastic? Is there a manufacturing limitation/accuracy problem to make this part of the model in metal as well?

Just wondering....

cyfler · 08-16-2001, 01:25 PM

Maybe a metal tail would make the model tail-heavy and slump down?

Sean767 -YVR · 08-16-2001, 01:35 PM

For both companies they need to improve the landing gears on some aircraft. Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down

and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought.

Thanks From Sean

DirtyBird · 08-16-2001, 01:51 PM

ANG MING, I think the only Gemini mold that has the plastic vertical stabilizer is the 707. I think this is because of the antenna that projects out of the top of the leading edge of the stabilzer, its pretty hard to replicate this piece in metal, it would be prone to not filling in during the casting process if it were metal so you would end up with a lot of defective models. Even so I think Gemini didnt do a good job despite using plastic here, the antenna is way too thick, they should be able to get results with a thinner antenna with injection molding no problem. We need to add this to the list of things to improve

.

- No F**ked up looking antenna
- No huge *** seams
- We want fins and strakes and more detailed landing gear (even if its really hard to do

)
- Sean wants motorized landing gear and moveable flaps (dude what have you been smoking

)

08-16-2001, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean767 -YVR
For both companies they need to improve the landing gears on some aircraft. Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought.

Thanks From Sean

And enough thrust from the engines for the planes to be able to take off and brakes to stop the planes on the ground and working lights for night vision and interior cabins and I think that'll be good.

DirtyBird · 08-16-2001, 03:35 PM

Ok now you're being unreasonable

BillTse · 08-16-2001, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyBird
ANG MING, I think the only Gemini mold that has the plastic vertical stabilizer is the 707.

Actually the GJ's 747's stablizer is also plastic. I maybe wrong, but I believe they were going to switch this over to metal.

IFTNFS · 08-16-2001, 04:51 PM

As far as I know, the only Gemini models with plastic vertical stabilizers are the 707 and 747. I think the 747's was made in plastic because the model would have been tail heavy otherwise. I remember reading that somewhere, either here or on the Gemini Club forum sometime ago.

Rick

Criton · 08-16-2001, 05:32 PM

Yeah, Wings500. Good Points. That must be why postings at your Herpa-centric forum have slowed to a trickle. By-the-way, why is that there are a fair number of people who have moved from Wings500 to this forum but no poeple that I am aware of that have made the reverse migration?

Criton · 08-16-2001, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wings500
Criton, we have exchanged quite some arguments in the past and i enjoyed it. BTW, I was talking about the market and the strong headwind blowing at Starjets, not about any forum.

Any arguments containing facts here, or just the normal "I fight for what I like and it is the best" crowd hanging out tonight!?!

Gee, and I thought this thread was about improvements that can be made to MODELS!!!!; not Starjets' marketing support and its distribution system. Remember, for us, its just a hobby. For you, its seems to be just business.

DeltaFlot · 08-16-2001, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean767 -YVR
For both companies they need to improve the landing gears on some aircraft. Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought.

Thanks From Sean

I think haveing this would require nano-tech at this scale. Interesting thought though.

Skyline · 08-16-2001, 08:17 PM

I remember 20 years ago I bought a nice 1:500 (?) ANA L-1011 o/c diecast model in Japan. I don't remember if the detail is as good as today's product. However, I do remember it featured the best landing gear I've ever seen. The landing gears are retractable to the gear cabin in the same way on a real L-1011 (there's no door on it though). You don't need to take off the gears like you do on a DW model. I think the cost of it is much higher than just "insert" the gears to the holes.

KJC · 08-16-2001, 09:00 PM

DRAGON:

1. Eliminate the gap between tail and fuselage

2. Sh*t-can that god-awful metal magic and chrome stuff, and use a realistic bare metal finish, like the one they had on the Boeing 747 First Flight. Or better yet, copy GJ and use Real Metal

3. Fix those cockpit windows on the L-1011

GEMINI:

1. Eliminate that tail seam. I don't understand why they can't just make the horizontal stab. in two pieces and just insert them into the fuselage separately. More costly I suppose.

2. No more silver paint! Please use the outstanding Real Metal finish.

RiceBoy · 08-16-2001, 10:31 PM

For GeminiJets:

- Eliminate the tail seam under the horizontal stab (although the recent models have greatly reduced the gap in the seam).

- The seam between the vertical stab/engine and the fuselage on the L-1011 is a huge sticking point with me. People don't like Dragon for their use of plastic, but their L-1011 mould uses metal for the horizontal stab AND there is no seam, so I can't see why GJ can't do the same, unless the use of metal on the horizontal stab is causing some huge problem with doing that.

For Dragon Wings:

- Pick a consistent colour to use for both the cockpit and pax windows and stick with it.

- Eliminate the tail seams on all the baby Airbus moulds, now that the A330 and A340 moulds appear to be updated.

- Better quality control! Sometimes it's a crap shoot on whether or not a DW model has good printing or bad printing or wheels not staying place.

I don't have any Herpas, so I can't comment on them.

ANTHONY F DUVA JR · 08-16-2001, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean767 -YVR
Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down

Lintoy had this feature on some of its 70s diecast planes such as the DeHavilland Comet DH.88 air racer.

Quote:

and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought.

Many toy airplanes from the 1950s did indeed have this feature! One advantage that toys have over display models; however, the wheels were large and VERY unrealistic.

ANTHONY F DUVA JR · 08-16-2001, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skyline
I remember 20 years ago I bought a nice 1:500 (?) ANA L-1011 o/c diecast model in Japan. I don't remember if the detail is as good as today's product. However, I do remember it featured the best landing gear I've ever seen. The landing gears are retractable to the gear cabin in the same way on a real L-1011 (there's no door on it though). You don't need to take off the gears like you do on a DW model. I think the cost of it is much higher than just "insert" the gears to the holes.

you are probably referring to the Tomica version that came in two different All-Nippon schemes, 70s and 80s?

Many 70s diecast planes - and some from the 60s (Tekno in particular) had scale-size, retractable landing gear, with and without doors. AeroMini, Lintoy, and Tomica in particular.

Ertl's 1990s jetliners (ie. Air Canada 767, Continental DC-9) had retractable landing gear but they were so unrealistic that modellers used to remove them and replace them with more realistic versions!

DirtyBird · 08-17-2001, 10:48 AM

Quote:

That is an interesting statement. Is it based on pure guessing or on a solid figure? Or is it just your personal point of view because you like Star Jets? Well then I can post the same about herpa, because I like them. But this does not create facts.

This is a personal point of view albeit a very valid one. The people who actually collect these things dont give a rats *** about marketing, and if you read my statement carefully you will see I said StarJets took over the "collectors market". The fact of the matter is when you put a Herpa Wings 1:500 and a Starjets side by side all that marketing crap you've been talking about goes out the window. Do you honestly think I am gonna go buy the crap Herpa makes when I can see with my own two eyes that Starjets is much more accurate! But this is all besides the point, I started this hobby back in 1997 collecting Herpa Wings, all through these years we begged Herpa to fix the landing gear and do a better job with their molds, but they didnt listen, they just kept on producing the crap and we kept on buying because there was no alternative. Well along came Starjets and they introduced the scaled landing gear which herpa at the time told us they could not do, they fixed all the things that were wrong with the Herpa molds and today they are rewarded for their efforts buy being the number one choice of collectors in 1:500. Herpa's latest efforts with the NG models is too late too little, and even so the NG models are still not as accurate as Starjets. I personally no longer collect 1:500 but I still own a large collection of Herpa 1:500's and no Starjets, but if I were collecting 1:500's you bet your *** I would buy Starjets regardless of what you've said about marketing.
I know you have ties to Herpa Andy so this might be hard for you to accept, but I'll say it to you again. Herpa primarily produces scaled cars and trucks and they do an excellent job of it, the wings portion of the company is almost like an after thought. Its just another way for them to make money with minimal effort, which explains why they made no effort to fix their crap all these years. For a while they were king in the scaled airplane market because there was no competition and just like any monoply they sat back and milked their customers, well no longer! Unless Herpa really pulls the chains and does something spectacular in the near future they will go the way of Schabak, end of story.

Foxflys · 08-17-2001, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KJC
DRAGON:

2. Sh*t-can that god-awful metal magic and chrome stuff, and use a realistic bare metal finish, like the one they had on the Boeing 747 First Flight. Or better yet, copy GJ and use Real Metal

I think that the most recent metal finish that DW is using, such as the finish on the AA MD-82 and the AA 777 is the most realistic look going. To me it looks alot more lifelike than the Real metal finish that GJ uses. Its hard to replicate the correct unpainted look of aluminum without using some sort of artificial finish, and GJ real metal is stainless steel, which has a totally different hue than aluminim. I actually think that the GJ chrome finish looks more realistic than the real metal. Just personal opinion though.

Doug767 · 08-19-2001, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean767 -YVR
For both companies they need to improve the landing gears on some aircraft. Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought.

Thanks From Sean

I think some one here has been smoking some really bad stuff

RiceBoy · 08-19-2001, 12:56 PM

Well, marajuana is now legal here in Canada (for medicinal purposes), so maybe Sean767 has been delving into the weed a bit

Sgt Caribou · 08-19-2001, 05:42 PM

With all due respect to the above, I saw my first Starjets models over the weekend, the US Airways A319 and two A340 variants. If Starjets had the variety the two major 1/400 players offered, I would go with them in an instant, the quality is outstanding, especially considering the scale. Having said that things are quite OK with what Gemini and Dragon are doing these days and I really don't favour starting another collection all over again, but it is nice to have all these options.

Brian S.

LeitenderNotarzt · 08-19-2001, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DirtyBird

This is a personal point of view albeit a very valid one. The people who actually collect these things dont give a rats *** about marketing, and if you read my statement carefully you will see I said StarJets took over the "collectors market". The fact of the matter is when you put a Herpa Wings 1:500 and a Starjets side by side all that marketing crap you've been talking about goes out the window. Do you honestly think I am gonna go buy the crap Herpa makes when I can see with my own two eyes that Starjets is much more accurate! But this is all besides the point, I started this hobby back in 1997 collecting Herpa Wings, all through these years we begged Herpa to fix the landing gear and do a better job with their molds, but they didnt listen, they just kept on producing the crap and we kept on buying because there was no alternative. Well along came Starjets and they introduced the scaled landing gear which herpa at the time told us they could not do, they fixed all the things that were wrong with the Herpa molds and today they are rewarded for their efforts buy being the number one choice of collectors in 1:500. Herpa's latest efforts with the NG models is too late too little, and even so the NG models are still not as accurate as Starjets. I personally no longer collect 1:500 but I still own a large collection of Herpa 1:500's and no Starjets, but if I were collecting 1:500's you bet your *** I would buy Starjets regardless of what you've said about marketing.
I know you have ties to Herpa Andy so this might be hard for you to accept, but I'll say it to you again. Herpa primarily produces scaled cars and trucks and they do an excellent job of it, the wings portion of the company is almost like an after thought. Its just another way for them to make money with minimal effort, which explains why they made no effort to fix their crap all these years. For a while they were king in the scaled airplane market because there was no competition and just like any monoply they sat back and milked their customers, well no longer! Unless Herpa really pulls the chains and does something spectacular in the near future they will go the way of Schabak, end of story.

DirtyBird,

I regret you are not well-informed here. First of all, I do agree that StarJets made many people collect 1:500 models (those people who did not buy Herpa's 1:500 before). But: this does not mean that StarJets took over control of the whole 1:500 collectors' market. As opposed to your assessment, I know many people who used to collect Herpa Wings before StarJets emerged the market. And guess what?! They still do. For these old freaks (regarding the die-cast collectors market), the Herpa Wings story goes on and on.
Furthermore, you should be informed that Schabak performs well in the market. They never really cared about the collectors' market in the past, so they do not now. The airline contracts make up approx. 96% of Schabak's business, the collectors' market only 4%. Schabak releases now releases more new models per year than ever before (around 50 new releases p.a.). If that's going to be Herpa's fate... well, it's going to be a bright future for these (ugly) planes.

Just to stay with the facts.

Daniel

08-16-2001, 12:19 PM	#1
DirtyBird Master Collector Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Atlanta GA, USA Posts: 895	What improvements next? What do you think is the next big thing for 1:400 scale manufaturers to improve on their molds? The mold accuracies as far as the overall fuselage shapes go are getting much better and the printing details in my opinion are really incredible, but there is room for improvement for all the manufacturers in this scale. Although I know its almost impossible to do with the current casting techniques, I would eventually like to see strakes and fins on my models, I think this is the one thing that might give the edge to either manufacturer, well I take that back this and more detailed landing gear. We all pretty much know what happened to Herpa 1:500 when they didnt improve on their molds, StarJets came along and basically took the whole collectors market out of theirs hands with better mold accuracy and scaled landing gear. Well I think the manufacturer that gets the next big improvement will exact the same blow on their competitor. __________________ Turkish Airlines DC-10-30 from Gemini Jets!

08-16-2001, 01:05 PM	#3
ANG MING CHUANG Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 84	Plastic Fin Why is it that even GJ has to make the vertical stabliser in plastic? Is there a manufacturing limitation/accuracy problem to make this part of the model in metal as well? Just wondering.... __________________ ~~@~~

08-16-2001, 01:51 PM	#6
DirtyBird Master Collector Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Atlanta GA, USA Posts: 895	ANG MING, I think the only Gemini mold that has the plastic vertical stabilizer is the 707. I think this is because of the antenna that projects out of the top of the leading edge of the stabilzer, its pretty hard to replicate this piece in metal, it would be prone to not filling in during the casting process if it were metal so you would end up with a lot of defective models. Even so I think Gemini didnt do a good job despite using plastic here, the antenna is way too thick, they should be able to get results with a thinner antenna with injection molding no problem. We need to add this to the list of things to improve . - No Fked up looking antenna - No huge * seams - We want fins and strakes and more detailed landing gear (even if its really hard to do ) - Sean wants motorized landing gear and moveable flaps (dude what have you been smoking ) __________________ Turkish Airlines DC-10-30 from Gemini Jets!

08-16-2001, 03:35 PM	#8
DirtyBird Master Collector Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Atlanta GA, USA Posts: 895	Ok now you're being unreasonable __________________ Turkish Airlines DC-10-30 from Gemini Jets!

08-16-2001, 08:17 PM	#14
Skyline Master Collector Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Age: 39 Posts: 949	I remember 20 years ago I bought a nice 1:500 (?) ANA L-1011 o/c diecast model in Japan. I don't remember if the detail is as good as today's product. However, I do remember it featured the best landing gear I've ever seen. The landing gears are retractable to the gear cabin in the same way on a real L-1011 (there's no door on it though). You don't need to take off the gears like you do on a DW model. I think the cost of it is much higher than just "insert" the gears to the holes. __________________ http://www.Bluesky49N.com

08-16-2001, 12:34 PM	#2
cyfler Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Dallas, Texas USA Posts: 359	Wow, good topic you dirty bird A huge step for GJ would be to eliminate the tail seam. DW has a bunch of Airbus molds in desperate need of revamping. Aside from that, we've seen more detailing evolve and overall better quality but there's always room for improvement.

08-16-2001, 01:25 PM	#4
cyfler Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Dallas, Texas USA Posts: 359	Maybe a metal tail would make the model tail-heavy and slump down?

08-16-2001, 01:35 PM	#5
Sean767 -YVR Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Age: 22 Posts: 209	For both companies they need to improve the landing gears on some aircraft. Hey maybe in the near future both companies will have extended flaps which will be able to move up and down and also the wheels will have little remote control engines so you could actually drive your airplane around your own airport, hey it's just a thought. Thanks From Sean

08-16-2001, 04:51 PM	#10
IFTNFS Senior Collector Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Harwich, MA, USA Age: 27 Posts: 427	As far as I know, the only Gemini models with plastic vertical stabilizers are the 707 and 747. I think the 747's was made in plastic because the model would have been tail heavy otherwise. I remember reading that somewhere, either here or on the Gemini Club forum sometime ago. Rick

08-16-2001, 05:32 PM	#11
Criton Master Collector Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Silver Spring, MD USA Posts: 756	Yeah, Wings500. Good Points. That must be why postings at your Herpa-centric forum have slowed to a trickle. By-the-way, why is that there are a fair number of people who have moved from Wings500 to this forum but no poeple that I am aware of that have made the reverse migration?

08-16-2001, 09:00 PM	#15
KJC Insane Collector Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Pasadena, CA Age: 37 Posts: 2,529	My 2 cents DRAGON: 1. Eliminate the gap between tail and fuselage 2. Sht-can that god-awful metal magic and chrome stuff, and use a realistic bare metal finish, like the one they had on the Boeing 747 First Flight. Or better yet, copy GJ and use Real Metal 3. Fix those cockpit windows on the L-1011 GEMINI: 1. Eliminate that tail seam. I don't understand why they can't just make the horizontal stab. in two pieces and just insert them into the fuselage separately. More costly I suppose. 2. No more silver paint! Please use the outstanding Real Metal finish. __________________ The white zones are for the immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. No parking!*

08-16-2001, 10:31 PM	#16
RiceBoy Collector Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Age: 35 Posts: 136	For GeminiJets: - Eliminate the tail seam under the horizontal stab (although the recent models have greatly reduced the gap in the seam). - The seam between the vertical stab/engine and the fuselage on the L-1011 is a huge sticking point with me. People don't like Dragon for their use of plastic, but their L-1011 mould uses metal for the horizontal stab AND there is no seam, so I can't see why GJ can't do the same, unless the use of metal on the horizontal stab is causing some huge problem with doing that. For Dragon Wings: - Pick a consistent colour to use for both the cockpit and pax windows and stick with it. - Eliminate the tail seams on all the baby Airbus moulds, now that the A330 and A340 moulds appear to be updated. - Better quality control! Sometimes it's a crap shoot on whether or not a DW model has good printing or bad printing or wheels not staying place. I don't have any Herpas, so I can't comment on them.

08-19-2001, 12:56 PM	#22
RiceBoy Collector Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Age: 35 Posts: 136	Well, marajuana is now legal here in Canada (for medicinal purposes), so maybe Sean767 has been delving into the weed a bit

08-19-2001, 05:42 PM	#23
Sgt Caribou Insane Collector Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, CANADA, eh Age: 45 Posts: 1,663	Starjets, etc. With all due respect to the above, I saw my first Starjets models over the weekend, the US Airways A319 and two A340 variants. If Starjets had the variety the two major 1/400 players offered, I would go with them in an instant, the quality is outstanding, especially considering the scale. Having said that things are quite OK with what Gemini and Dragon are doing these days and I really don't favour starting another collection all over again, but it is nice to have all these options. Brian S.