You will find some hard facts about bad zinc alloy quality in the attached word file. That will help you in the future to keep your collection in a good condition.
That's great information and great research. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would delete it. It's probably one of the most germaine posts regarding this hobby that I've seen in several months. I've got a few questions, though.
Have you run similar tests on models from other manufacturers (gemini, sma, bigbird)? Does the testing require you to essentially destroy the model or can you analyze a perfectly good model without damaging it in any way?
That's great information and great research. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would delete it. It's probably one of the most germaine posts regarding this hobby that I've seen in several months. I've got a few questions, though.
First, what was the specific aircraft that you tested? Have you run similar tests on models from other manufacturers (gemini, sma, bigbird)?
Thanks again for sharing this.
Thank you for the appreciation.
First I had some experience with some SMA and AC B737-200. Broken wings and stabs.
The tested model is an AC Northwest B720. To be fair it is the only one that I have in this bad condition.
Have you run similar tests on models from other manufacturers (gemini, sma, bigbird)? Does the testing require you to essentially destroy the model or can you analyze a perfectly good model without damaging it in any way?
I did not test models from other manufacturers. It is not possible to test the material with the XRF and REM analysis method without destroying the models.
For the XRF method I need a part with a flat surface which can cover a 15mm diameter.
I thought only the models made of plastic were problematic (yellowing etc.).
High quality zinc alloy from China? I don’t expect too much. Even if the say they have solved the problem – who knows. I don’t trust them.
BTW Every time I get a new model I use glass cleaner to clean them. I just want to make sure that fingerprints, sweat, chemicals from the production etc. are not on the model any longer.
So far it works perfect.
Do you think there will be a negative long-term effect?
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What an interesting review you did CEBU PACIFIC. I must say THANK YOU !!! I will save your tips on my computer and I really really hope the manufactures choose better dealers to its models.
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BTW Every time I get a new model I use glass cleaner to clean them. I just want to make sure that fingerprints, sweat, chemicals from the production etc. are not on the model any longer.
So far it works perfect.
Do you think there will be a negative long-term effect?
I think if you use a soft glass cleaner you will not have a problem. But I guess the worker are using gloves when they handle the models.
Very interesting analysis. I have heard that this problem is most prevalent with B737s made at the time that both AC and SMA were releasing models, and is affected by storage conditions. I have been told that if there is any doubt about whether a model has this problem don't try to bend the metal.
Do you remember the old postings about models that got cracks in the paint? Some collectors in Hong Kong had this problem.
Could it be that this has to do with the zinc alloy problem, too?
I mean an “infected” model changes its volume. It becomes bigger.
That's correct. Infected models grow bigger. You can see that very well in my photos. The paint is already full with cracks and also some humps are to see. It's similar to steel which start to rust. The oxygen is joined with zinc and that need more space.
Thanks for the background on this, explains why my NWA B720 falls apart just sitting on the shelf, really the mains and nose wheel and the antenae all fell off by just placing the model down, had similar problem with ASA CV-880 nose wheel and TWA 749 nose wheel, they broke after I just carefully placed the models on the shelf.
Thanks for the background on this, explains why my NWA B720 falls apart just sitting on the shelf, really the mains and nose wheel and the antenae all fell off by just placing the model down, had similar problem with ASA CV-880 nose wheel and TWA 749 nose wheel, they broke after I just carefully placed the models on the shelf.
Sad to hear that. Especially the TWA 749 is a nearly new modell that really surprise me. I also learned when I tried to bend the front gear of a Connie they are brittle.
Sad to hear that. Especially the TWA 749 is a nearly new modell that really surprise me. I also learned when I tried to bend the front gear of a Connie they are brittle.
I would never try to bend them, but I have quite a few Connies and the TWA 749, both stripe and globe had the nose wheel break in half, none of my other Connies had that problem
Would just like to mention that I have all my models (450+) on display shelves, some have been out of the box since 1999 and I have never had any problems with peeling or cracked paint, the only thing I noticed recently was some strange distortion on my GJ AA polished models.
I am now apprehensive to look at some of these old timers I have when the 1/400's came out. I'm afraid that when I open the box I'll see nothing but dust.
I do hope all the mfr's know about this and do what they should do to prevent this deterioration from happening. These are not cheap when your talking 1,200 + models.
This is somehow a “Pro” for Dragon Wings. At least wings, rudders, stabs and gears are made of plastic. The only metal part is the fuselage which is pretty thick and can’t break that fast. But the cracked paint? Oh my goodness!
In another forum (model trains) I read that this could be a problem of very old models mainly from the fifties. They can be problematic now! This means about 50 years later.
Because of WW II there was a lack of good raw materials and the producers didn’t know anything about the problems to come. The very last models with these problems were from the seventies. How old are your infected models?
Gee! Do people in these Chinese factories really care for the quality of their products?
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Not that it probably matters, but just as an FYI, this post was not deleted from 400SH because it wasn't "nice". It was removed, because it was in a totally different thread..
I told Cebu that he could start his own seperate thread about this...
Not that it probably matters, but just as an FYI, this post was not deleted from 400SH because it wasn't "nice". It was removed, because it was in a totally different thread..
I told Cebu that he could start his own seperate thread about this...
Yes that's true. But why should I post it there again? Maybe another person or me write something that you don't like and you erase it again. It was some work to write this article and for my opinion the collectors have the right to know that some problems are around. You don't have the right to erase posts in this forum that's why I decided to post it here.
Not that it probably matters, but just as an FYI, this post was not deleted from 400SH because it wasn't "nice". It was removed, because it was in a totally different thread..
I told Cebu that he could start his own seperate thread about this...
The thought police have all kinds of reasons for doing what they do.
Ya know, that explains a lot. Cebu Pacific, your post was rather informative and I appreciate you posting it!
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I read with keen interest your article and would like to add to it that most of the problems you expose are due to storage conditions of the model. You informed us that the model was purchased from a Hong Kong resident (which is a very humid area and you also told us that the model was made in 2003). So basically this model has been sitting in a box in Hong Kong humidity for 3 years now. Any metal exposed to high humidity like in Florida or salt like in Canada is prone to degrade and rust. So this is nothing new and if Hong Kong sellers do not store their inventory in a controlled environment, it will suffer some adverse consequenses. We all saw the Dragon Wings Pokemon 747 & 767 problems because of the same humidity situation but only from Hong Kong dealers. Non of my Dragon Wings Pokemon 747/767 or any other model made by the other manufacturers had any of the symptoms as my storage conditions were and still are compeletely different.
To conclude, I was In China this past March and saw with my own eyes barrels of raw material in one corner and when I asked the factory owner how come they were in barrels, he replied that they were of inferior quality and could not be used in the injection mould machine. So they do care about the quality of the metal used and the print technology is nothing but superb from spray painting to baking it on to the tamp print.
Your Hong Kong seller did the right thing by refunding you but at the same time should have taken the time to check his inventory before shipping it to you.
Zareh
Mr. Cebu
I read with keen interest your article and would like to add to it that most of the problems you expose are due to storage conditions of the model. You informed us that the model was purchased from a Hong Kong resident (which is a very humid area and you also told us that the model was made in 2003). So basically this model has been sitting in a box in Hong Kong humidity for 3 years now. Any metal exposed to high humidity like in Florida or salt like in Canada is prone to degrade and rust. So this is nothing new and if Hong Kong sellers do not store their inventory in a controlled environment, it will suffer some adverse consequenses.
If this problem is well known why is there no warning in the box to keep the models away from the mentioned surroundings?
There is so much knowledge about airplanes but only a few people know how take care to their collection.
I really hope the manufacturer will add in the future something like a manual to get attention of the collectors for this problem.
I think the manufacturer should do some corrosion test. After that he will know how sensitive is a model for corrosion.
As an avid model car collector as well as model planes, I know quite a bit about how storage, finger prints and even dust can affect die-cast models. I had several model cars stored in an area of my house with poor climate control (a spare room with no a/c). I live in Louisiana, so that should tell you something. Every one of these models suffered from surface distortions due to the zinc oxidation that took place. Even high-quality metal (these were Franklin and Danbury Mint models) can be affected, so really be careful to place these delicate models where they aren't exposed to sunlight, humidity or excessive temperatures. Don't use bright display lights, and wear cotton gloves when handling them (not latex). Dust them frequently. And don't let the kiddies play with them, for God's sake!
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Has anyone established the shelf life of a die cast zinker? Climate, humidity, heat, UV rays, all will take their toll. Perhaps there is a normal shelf life of these models, say 5 years? Like somethings, a car, for example, your underwear, shoes...etc we should plan on replacing them from time to time. Throw out the old and worn and buy new ones to replace them?
Peewee
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I've been collecting die-cast for 18 years, and with the exception of the models I let languish in my spare room, the rest of my collection is in great shape. If you take care of them, and if you're like me, your heirs will be selling these for a great price on eBay.
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Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or imbeciles who really mean it. Mark Twain
Has anyone established the shelf life of a die cast zinker? Climate, humidity, heat, UV rays, all will take their toll. Perhaps there is a normal shelf life of these models, say 5 years? Like somethings, a car, for example, your underwear, shoes...etc we should plan on replacing them from time to time. Throw out the old and worn and buy new ones to replace them?
Peewee
I found this site in the WWW Corrosion of Zinc you will find the basics about corrosion of zinc there.
What I know if the zinc alloy is not already affected by corrosion in the factory and you are able to keep the models under good condition I can assure you that they will survive you.
In Switzerland are so many old trains around like Maerklin or HAG. They are not affected by corrosion as long as they were inside heated rooms. Even the 50 years old one.
I really recommend AK to visit the Maerklin factory in Goeppingen if he visit one day Germany. I can assure him he will be impressed when he see this factory. Of course he can learn there a lot about quality and maybe there will be some impact in the future in his products.
Maybe somebody in Hongkong has a longterm experience with die cast Maerklin trains. If they could survive there for 20 years ore more there is no reason why airplane models cannot do the same.
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I'd love to visit the Marklin factory if I could ever have the chance!!
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Just my $.02 again, for what its worth, all my 450+ models have been out on display, some since 1999, no special treatment. They only get cleaned when they are selected for a diorama to be photographed, and then I use Windex or Fantastic. With the exception of NWA B720, I have had no problems at all, some broken nose gears but that occurred when the model was new. Everything else has held up very well. I live on Long Island, about 2 miles from the water, the models get no direct sun and the room is not air conditioned. When I get home tonight I will have to check out my GJ VIR 744, I hate the model, its been on the top shelf since 2000 and I don't think it has even been handled in over 3 years.
When I get home tonight I will have to check out my GJ VIR 744, I hate the model, its been on the top shelf since 2000 and I don't think it has even been handled in over 3 years.
Everything else has held up very well. I live on Long Island, about 2 miles from the water, the models get no direct sun and the room is not air conditioned. When I get home tonight I will have to check out my GJ VIR 744, I hate the model, its been on the top shelf since 2000 and I don't think it has even been handled in over 3 years.
I'm sure this model will be ok. You have to dust it only.
Andrew, please can you make a statement if you do something to improve the quality of the metal or the quality control. Maybe it's already done what are the new standards?
Sounds to me like corrosion and poor quality control, zinc, sealed by paint with no air trapped should not corrode and case a model to "fall apart".
Any untreated metal will start to corrode (oxidize) unless protected by some means such as plating.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cebu Pacific
Andrew, please can you make a statement if you do something to improve the quality of the metal or the quality control. Maybe it's already done what are the new standards?
This whole issue was a very isolated one. It involved a couple of 737's and the 720 you speak of; and not every piece of those models had this issue either. I have the NW 720 and it's perfect.
The problem arised more than 4 years ago, and since has not been repeated. So this means it's fixed.
This whole issue was a very isolated one. It involved a couple of 737's and the 720 you speak of; and not every piece of those models had this issue either. I have the NW 720 and it's perfect.
The problem arised more than 4 years ago, and since has not been repeated. So this means it's fixed.
I like to read a statement from AK. Btw, you did not answer my question.
If your NW 720 is perfect try bend the antenna a little. I have another one at home and I tried bend the antenna in a straight position and it broke. That's why I wanted to replace it with another one.
The antenna issue has nothing to do with the zinc issue.
By nature the antenna's are very delicate. The 707 has a somewhat delicate antenna, but the 720B is the most.
I've broken my fair share of antenna's.
If you don't have the knowledge about material you shouldn't tell things like that.
There is a direct connection between the material quality and the antenna issue. I have near all AC B707 and B720 in my collection and I can assure you I know the difference between all these zinc alloy qualities.
In the research and material testing institute where I work, we receive regular poor material from China for analysis. Mostly is the recommendation to the customer not to use the testet material.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that you are not the material expert? Sometimes it is better to be humble and listen to other people.
Oh, like I said, I have no problem with my over 500 models so I really see no quality problem.
For the price, I think the quality is pretty darn nice, they are only $25-$30 models, now, if my $70,000 sports car had bad metal, then I'd be pissed
In one thing you're not correct. As long as the models looks good you don't have the proof the material is good because you can't see inside the material.
Yes, the price is not high but I like to enjoy my collection for a long time.
No one of us has a longterm experience with these 1:400 models. This hobby is too young. The time will show it to us in the future.
Andrew, please can you make a statement if you do something to improve the quality of the metal or the quality control. Maybe it's already done what are the new standards?
Funny I have two of these models in specific and about another 1000. I have moved with these models from New York, to Detroit, to Cincinnati Ohio. In each case the models were stored in a storage center (extreme cold and extreme heat) and often times in my basements. I handle my models with my hands to take pictures of them .. I take pictures in the middle of winter and in the summer (extreme temp changes). They are not in direct sunlight and I do dust them, but that is about it.
I don't have an issue with any of the 1:400 planes in my collection, including Aeroclassics, DW, GJs, Phoenix, BigBird, Aurora or Retrojets.
The only issue I have ever had is some of my Western Models yellowing.
Now with respect to your comments above, the only issue I have seen with ACs are one or two people who have posted pics. I seem to recall that Tucano had some issues and of course the Herpa Premium yellowing issue. I have to say I am a skeptic of your conclusions ... given the theory you have proposed, all the models should have been affected by this 'Bad' zinc ... if AC or anyone else had real quality control issues along these lines, there would be far more instances of this occuring .... some of these models have been out for 6-7 years. I have owned my 2 NWAs since they were released and as mentioned above it has not been treated with any special care ... and they are both in mint condition.
To me this points to a different cause ... some type of external cause that has made your model appear like this.
that's my $.02
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Zinc alloys are not just zinc alloys. Their chemical specifications can differ, as well as machanical and physical properties too. Some zinc alloys are hard and brittle while others are tough or soft. Another factor is the casting process and the quality control during manufacturing.
Here's a very interesting link regarding zink alloys:
To me this points to a different cause ... some type of external cause that has made your model appear like this.
Please give me some time. When I get the result of the REM analysis may I will know the cause of the damage. I will publish the result in this forum again.
I saw so many broken wings of SMA and AC B737 in ebay. It's good for you not to have any problems with your collection. But you can't deny the problems.
For me isn't the subject pro or contra Aeroclassics. The subject is how to take care to the collection. As we read some Franklin Mint model cars are also affected by zinc plague.
Problems with zinc alloy
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