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Complete Wacko!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Parker, CO
Posts: 3,070
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Sounds sad! Bad days to hear this.
We had two bad crashes here in the West. Moab a plane went down and over Denver a Mid-Air happened.
From the Denver Post:
Pilot knew Cessna was just ahead
Controller may not have had reading on Piper's altitude
By Jeffrey Leib, Sean Kelly and George Merritt
Denver Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - Shortly before two planes collided over Denver's West Highland neighborhood early Friday evening, an air traffic controller warned the Piper Cheyenne pilot that he had a Cessna 172 directly in front of him about a mile away.
Post / Glen Martin
Investigators unload wreckage from both planes Monday. The pieces are being laid out at a hangar ub Greeley, where investigators will look for clues to Friday's crash.
The Cessna, piloted by 20-year-old Jonathan Ladd of Littleton, left Centennial Airport at 5:07 p.m. Friday bound for Cheyenne with two friends aboard.
A National Transportation Safety Board report released Monday said that about 5:19 p.m., Ladd asked an air traffic controller for permission to climb from 7,300 feet to 8,500 feet. Permission was granted.
At 5:15 p.m., the Piper, with pilots Leo "Lee" Larson and Fred Gregory White aboard, departed Jefferson County Airport bound for Centennial.
Both Ladd and the Piper pilot - it is not clear if Larson or White was piloting the plane - were operating their planes under visual flight rules, or VFR conditions.
Flying under VFR rules made pilots on both planes responsible for looking out for other traffic. Pilots call it "see and be seen."
The NTSB said that shortly after takeoff both pilots requested and received an air traffic control service called VFR "flight following" from the Federal Aviation Administration's terminal radar traffic control facility near Denver International Airport.
"As a result, one controller was providing basic radar services to both pilots," including safety alerts and traffic advisories, NTSB said in its report.
If Ladd had been able to climb above 8,000 feet, he would have been in restricted Class B airspace and air traffic controllers at the DIA facility would have had a responsibility for closely monitoring his flight path while he was in that airspace.
In the minute or two before Ladd asked for FAA permission to climb, the controller asked the Piper pilot several times for his altitude.
In his first response, about 5:17 p.m., the Piper pilot reported he was at 7,800 feet. The second time, about two minutes later, just after the Cessna was given permission to climb from 7,300 feet, the Piper pilot reported he was at 7,600 feet, according to the NTSB narrative.
"The controller then issued a traffic advisory to the Piper Cheyenne advising that there was a Cessna at the Piper Cheyenne's 12 o'clock position" one mile away, the NTSB said.
"The collision occurred shortly thereafter," at 5:21 p.m.
Several individuals with knowledge of the events say the controller who was talking to the pilots of both planes may not have been getting a reading of the Piper's altitude on his computer screen at the FAA's radar center.
Such a condition could be due to a mechanical problem on the plane, or a technical problem at the FAA radar center, said Bob Gardner, a veteran private pilot who has written several books on general aviation procedures.
Without a readout on his screen of the Piper's altitude, the correct procedure would be for the controller to continue to ask the pilot for his altitude, he added.
"When assuming the responsibility of flight following, a controller will usually say, 'Advise any changes in altitude,' even though the VFR pilot is not under his control, just to ensure that the plane being (tracked) does not climb or descend through the flight path of another plane," Gardner said.
NTSB and FAA officials did not say whether the controller made such a request.
NTSB officials said wreckage from both planes was being laid out by investigators at a salvage hangar in Greeley.
With help from FAA, Piper and Cessna officials, the wreckage will be examined to document structural damage, scratches and "paint transfer marks" that could help determine the collision angles between the two planes, the NTSB said.
The agency also will be examining maintenance records for both planes.
The NTSB report said reported visibility at the time of the accident was 10 to 15 miles and cloud conditions were "broken and scattered" up to 14,000 feet.
The agency said the collision occurred 20 minutes after sunset and that the NTSB "will continue to investigate the effects that lighting may have had on the pilots' ability to see other aircraft."
Those familiar with the apparent flight paths of the planes say the fact that the Cessna has high wing and the Piper a low wing and relatively long nose could have contributed to the pilots' inability to see each in the critical final seconds before collision.
If the Cessna was climbing, Ladd would have had some blind spots as he scanned the sky above his high-wing aircraft. Conversely, if the Piper pilot was descending from 7,800 feet, the low wing and the long nose might have partially impeded his ability to see see traffic below.
NTSB officials said they were downloading recorded radar data of the planes' flight tracks and reviewing cockpit-to-controller voice communications to come up with a more detailed re-creation of the final minutes of both flights.
Also on Monday, Mayor Wellington Webb toured the crash site for the first time, pausing for an emotional visit with victims' families.
He had been in Washington, D.C., for a mayors' conference over the weekend.
"It's a miracle that more people didn't die, and specifically the people inside the house," Webb said after walking through the remains of the home at 3421 W. Moncrieff Place, where the Cessna crashed and then exploded.
In the past few days, Webb has called for a federal review of flight patterns in the Denver area after the midair collision.
"This is a real freakish kind of thing," Webb said.
FAA officials agreed to review air traffic over the city, he said.
Webb said he was not necessarily asking for a reduction in flights. But neighbors, he said, have questioned the number of low-flying craft in the area, particularly during Denver Broncos games.
"If you don't know something, it's always good to ask someone who does," Webb said. "Asking them to take a look at it and make a determination is a prudent thing to do."
The mayor thanked police officers and firefighters for their efforts on Friday night. Among those on hand was fire Capt. Glenn Guyman, who was 15 feet from the home when it exploded.
"I don't have any idea what hit me," Guyman said. "It knocked me back. It didn't knock me down."
He said he saw "no smoke, no fire, no nothing" before the house blew up.
Guyman, who suffered a cut to his head, was one of seven people injured on the ground. But he went back into the home with his crew from Engine 7 to put out the fire and reach the victims in the plane.
"I do feel lucky. Fifteen feet closer and it could have been a totally different story," said Guyman, a 16-year veteran of the fire department.
Webb took a basket of flowers from the family of Curt Maxey inside the fence set up to preserve the accident scene. Family members of the three young men who died in the crash came there for the first time Monday.
"They asked me if I would take the plant they brought out for their loved one," Webb explained.
Rod Murrow, father of Isaac Murrow, who was a passenger in the Cessna, said he does not blame anyone for his son's death.
"There is no room for that," Rod Murrow said. "Our hearts go out to the families of everyone involved, and we are grateful that more people were not hurt as a result of this tragedy.
"Even if there was some human error in this, it doesn't matter. It is hard enough to deal with this without pointing fingers."
Last edited by Chansen; 01-28-2003 at 10:53 AM.
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