I have just received several exceptional DC10-30 models from Gemini, such as the British Caledonian, BA Landor, Eastern (chrome) and Condor (Chrome) and I can 't help looking at them. They are shining!
When I put them on display on my shelves, I wondered if would be able to distinguish a MD-11 from a DC-10 and... I must admit, I have some trouble. Of course, I know what I purchasedf, but other than that, by just looking at the models (I am not talking airliners.net) is there any detail that would characterize one aircraft from the other?
I notice a sharper nose on the MD -11, but is that all? (Remember, despite my enthusiasm for this hobby, I am still not as expert as most of you... but I am making (slow) progress )
The MD-11 is also a little longer and it has a "beaver tail". What I mean is that at the end of the fuselage, it is not rounded off, it's more "squared" off.
Trijet nit-picker here! Regardless of mold accuracy, here's the DC-10/MD-11 family tree. (In CHRONOLOGICAL order, AFAIK)
DC-10-10. Base model.
DC-10-20. Wingspan increased 10 feet, center gear added to handle increased weight due to increased fuel. JT9D-20 engines (JT9D-20 designed for the DC-10-20, see?) Name changed to DC-10-40 once the -30 came out, because NW bitched about it. ONLY NW has this plane, JAL does not. Bulged intake and engine nacelle. Aft edge of wing/fuse fairing lengthened--it normally ends about 6 windows ahead of the back door, on this version and later, it goes all the way back to the last window. Late DC-10-10's also have the entended fairing, and DW's mold represents this.
DC-10-30. Same as a -20, but with GE engines. (And thus, no bulge--only PW ones have bulges, and all PW ones do, no GE one does, except for MD-11's)
DC-10-40. A -30 with PW JT9D-59 engines. They look VERY, VERY different from a "DC-10-40" that NW has. A "DC-10-40" of NW (which is really a DC-10-20) has engines that look a LOT like GE engines on an MD-11, despite being PW. A DC-10-40 (of JAL) has engines which look just like an MD-11's PW's. Bulged intake and nacelle.
DC-10-40D. A DC-10-40D with no center gear, and fuel capacity same as a -10. Only used by JAL. (It's the only DC-10 with the stretched wing but no center gear). Has JT9D-59 engines. Bulged intake and nacelle
DC-10-30ER. Same as a -30 with even more powerful engines (-50E's instead of -50C's)
DC-10-15. A DC-10-10 with a -30ER's engines. Aeromexico and Mexicana, only 7 built.
MD-11 (1990 to 1994) DC-10 stretched 20 feet (10 feet ahead of and behind wing). Tail plane about 1/3 smaller than a DC-10's. Winglets added (upper and lower). New flat tail cone, plus longer extreme aft fuselage--the tailcone isn't merely reshaped, it's several feet aft of the DC-10's. New FADEC controls for engines, new engines. Fully digital cockpit. Bulged intake and nacelle. (Identical to DC-10-40)
MD-11, 1994-1998/1999 (I'm not sure). Visible changes include winshield wipers defualting to "up" when off, retrofitted to all other MD-11's. Intake bulged even more, but so subtle even I can't tell.
MD-11, 1998+. New flap track fairing hinges--they project behind the trailing edge, unlike all other MDC planes where the hinges are basically trapezoids that hang down. Go look at LH's, they all have them.
That's it in a nutshell. (I left out the REALLY little things)
What, you want MORE differences? I don't want to get into "DC-10 vs MD-11 forward fuselage differences....." (It's like trying to tell a 767-200 from a 767-200ER--possible, but you need to be REALLY close and looking at the right spot)
I sure need a pair of glasses for not seeing the winglets !
Actually I thought that winglets could be optionally mounted on older aircrafts and therefore, I probably did not pay enough attention to them to consider them as a discriminating factor !
I am still puzzled by the nose of the 1:400 scale models. The MD-11 mould seems to have it sharper than the one of the DC-10 which is more rounded. I'm going to check this out on airliners.net now !
Thanks David for your very interesting information regarding the evolution of the DC-10.
Originally posted by Caravelle The MD-11 mould seems to have it sharper than the one of the DC-10 which is more rounded.
Maybe David can clear this one up, but I believe that is a mistake in the DW mold, and it's the worst mistake on it... for some reason no one ever talks about it. to me the Dragon MD-11 version looks like it has flattened sections at about 45 degrees to each other, aft of the cockpit from the side glass rearward. VERY similar to the fuselage section in this area on an Airbus 300, 310, 330, 340 series.
The DW DC-10 has a rounder, almost circular section in through the fuselage and continuing into this area. I BELIEVE that the 1:1 MD-11 actually has the same cockpit/forward fuselage/nose assemblies as the 1:1 DC-10. So... the nose section of these two model molds SHOULD be identical, but for some reason, they are not...
This has always bothered me and is the MAIN reason I only have one MD-11 in my collection so far.
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From just aft of the forward door, to the tip of the nose, DC-10's and MD-11's are IDENTICAL. Every little vent, port, and hole is the same.
As for the mold--yup, the MD-11's off a bit. Most easily noticeable between the forward door and cockpit---flat. It's easiest to see if you look at it from the side, from 45 degrees above. As in, start out looking directly from the side, at eye-level (as if you wanted to see the front door really well). Then move your head up so you're not directly above the plane looking from the side, but half-way, so you're looking down at it, but still from the side. Should look quite 777-ish. The DC-10 mold is still nice and round at that angle, the MD-11 is kinked. Still, the DW MD-11 is just about the most accurate 1/400 mold out there, and certainly the best of DW's. (For another example of "should be the same but aren't", compare DW's MD-80 and 717--the 717 has a better front end---check the forward cockpit windows (the MOLD, not the print)--the MD-80's are off--too sloped, too small, and the nose isn't bulbous enough)
As for winglets--the ONLY DC-10 to have winglets is the one NASA leased from CO for experiments. Full CO colors, easy to spot. And they were removed after the experiments. Interestingly, the winglets are the exact design used on the MD-11. There were two versions--10 feet, and 7 feet tall (the lower winglets are always 2 feet). The 7 foot version is literally the 10-footer with 3 feet cut off the top, but it was found to be aerodynamically identical to the 10-foot (as far are drag/fuel benefits), but since it was smaller (and hence lighter) than the 10-footer they went with the 7-foot version for the MD-11.
Forgot to mention (the obvious is always the thing you forget)---the easiest way to tell "early" and "late" MD-11's--if it's got GE engines, a late one will have a MUCH longer and pointier exhaust spike. Look like A330 GE's. Go look at KLM pics--their's are the first "late" ones, and introduced all the things like the new #2 intake, the bigger exhaust spikes, etc. (But do not have the new flap hinge fairings--they came about much later, and were just tacked on suddenly). Delta's last MD-11, N815DE has them. Makes her easy to tell from a distance, the only DL -11 with the new flap fairings. (I've never seen 815 myself, but if I ever do I'll know without even seeing the reg number)
PS--GJ way over-exaggerates the "non-bulged" intake's curves. They're SUBTLE. Nigh-invisible from the side. GJ's not as bad as Tucano's, but still far too much. There's only the *slightest* bit of curve in a DC-10-10/DC-10-30's intake. With GJ, you can barely tell a bulged and non-bulged #2 intake. (And Tucano made them identical! )
Winglets/fence first. Nacelles are smaller on the MD-11 to DC-10-30. Horizontal and Vertical stabilizers are smaller on MD-11. DC-10-30's are much larger. Beaver tail is on the MD-11. The fuselage length is greater on the MD-11.
::edit:: Oh, you mean SHORTER nacelles. (I think) (I interpreted smaller as meaning smaller diameter)
And there's no difference for the vertical stab. The MD-11 has a longer #2 pylon extension for GE's (and even longer for late-model GE's), but that's not really part of the tail...
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Last edited by David Hingtgen; 11-04-2002 at 01:50 PM.
Originally posted by David Hingtgen ::edit:: Oh, you mean SHORTER nacelles. (I think) (I interpreted smaller as meaning smaller diameter)
And there's no difference for the vertical stab. The MD-11 has a longer #2 pylon extension for GE's (and even longer for late-model GE's), but that's not really part of the tail...
All later engine N1 stage has been increased in diameter in MD-11 family with both engine makers! Nacelle length was exactly what I meant. On the number two you now also got what I was saying exactly. Sure only if not including #2 pylon and cowl and stablizer below nacelle housing.
Originally posted by Tracon Doug The MD-10 is just an avionics/systems upgrade to eliminate the FE position.
Sorry I was just being facetiuos, there are two very small external differences between a DC10 & an MD10.
1; An MD11 outflow valve, which doesn't have a deflector door.
2; The wipers park vertically.
The vertical wipers are not always present on an MD-11. It was one of the PIP things, and came standard on later MD-11's. I doubt AA retrofitted them, possibly Finnair and Swissair didn't either. (It's hard to find photos that show this, nor do I feel like looking up all 200 MD-11's to check their wipers) As for outflow valves--that's one of the "forward fuse" things I didn't mention.
I know I'm digging into an old thred... but hay I'm new and have been trying to research something that has been bugging me about the DC-10/MD-11 models..... The fact that with the models, the wing span is almost identical in length on the DC-10-10, DC-10-30, & the MD-11, but in reality the DC10-10 is 155'4" the DC10-30 is 165'4" and the MD-11 is 170'6"..... ... I watch these planes every night and its just a shame that the model doesn't catch the magnitude of its wing spand..
Originally posted by marvin101001 I know I'm digging into an old thred... but hay I'm new and have been trying to research something that has been bugging me about the DC-10/MD-11 models..... The fact that with the models, the wing span is almost identical in length on the DC-10-10, DC-10-30, & the MD-11, but in reality the DC10-10 is 155'4" the DC10-30 is 165'4" and the MD-11 is 170'6"..... ... I watch these planes every night and its just a shame that the model doesn't catch the magnitude of its wing spand..
actually the wingspan of the MD11 is 169'10", the actual span is the same as the DC-10-30 it is the angle of the winglets that push it out the extra 2 feet on each wing.
Originally posted by Monte actually the wingspan of the MD11 is 169'10", the actual span is the same as the DC-10-30 it is the angle of the winglets that push it out the extra 2 feet on each wing.
The span of an MD-11 varies from ~169 to 170+ feet, the same way a 744's varies from 211 to 213ft---they have such big wings, big winglets, and high fuel capacity, that it varies. So an MD-11's span is "somewhere around 169 feet" depending on how much fuel it has. The span itself is the same as the DC-10-30, as was said. (Flaps are different, but that affects cross-section/camber, not chord or span)
Get DW DC-10-10's and DC-10-30's next to each other--you can see the difference in span. (It's all in the outboard aileron, compare those)
As Many DACers have answered...The Winglets from a Distance, but for one who was confused years ago with the diff. between the DC 10 Series Birds until I did the research and later had "first hand" knowledge...here's a hint I used...
Get Close Enough to read the DC or MD which is proudly displayed by Most A/Ls on the Bird Itself!!
Originally posted by David Hingtgen The span of an MD-11 varies from ~169 to 170+ feet, the same way a 744's varies from 211 to 213ft---they have such big wings, big winglets, and high fuel capacity, that it varies. So an MD-11's span is "somewhere around 169 feet" depending on how much fuel it has. The span itself is the same as the DC-10-30, as was said. (Flaps are different, but that affects cross-section/camber, not chord or span)
Get DW DC-10-10's and DC-10-30's next to each other--you can see the difference in span. (It's all in the outboard aileron, compare those)
PS--DC-10/MD-11 will be my next guide.
Yeah I know the differences as I am an engineer with DL.
Originally posted by David Hingtgen Trijet nit-picker here! Regardless of mold accuracy, here's the DC-10/MD-11 family tree. (In CHRONOLOGICAL order, AFAIK)
DC-10-20. Wingspan increased 10 feet, center gear added to handle increased weight due to increased fuel. JT9D-20 engines (JT9D-20 designed for the DC-10-20, see?) Name changed to DC-10-40 once the -30 came out, because NW bitched about it. ONLY NW has this plane, JAL does not. Bulged intake and engine nacelle. Aft edge of wing/fuse fairing lengthened--it normally ends about 6 windows ahead of the back door, on this version and later, it goes all the way back to the last window. Late DC-10-10's also have the entended fairing, and DW's mold represents this.
DC-10-40. A -30 with PW JT9D-59 engines. They look VERY, VERY different from a "DC-10-40" that NW has. A "DC-10-40" of NW (which is really a DC-10-20) has engines that look a LOT like GE engines on an MD-11, despite being PW. A DC-10-40 (of JAL) has engines which look just like an MD-11's PW's. Bulged intake and nacelle.
DC-10-40D. A DC-10-40D with no center gear, and fuel capacity same as a -10. Only used by JAL. (It's the only DC-10 with the stretched wing but no center gear). Has JT9D-59 engines. Bulged intake and nacelle
I lived in Toronto as these were being built, all the wings built by McDonald Douglas Canada. David, as always, you have most of this right... the -20 was redisgnated -40 at NW request. The airframe is identical to a -30, and refers to ALL PW powered versions of the aircraft. That NW chose a different (earlier) version of the PW engine is the ONLY difference between their, and JAL's aircraft.
No DC-10's were ever certified as "-20", however the first Northwest aircraft did fly in McDonald Douglas 'house' colours, with huge "DC-10-20" titles for a while. The designation was changed before certification.
All the JAL aircraft were built with the center main gear - it was (is?) removed on some aircraft to save weight on short flights where the max takeoff weight can be reduced with a lower fuel load and less baggage and cargo. As such JAL designates them as "Domestic" aircraft. If you check JPFLeets, you will find that each aircraft takes a turn on the high-cycle-low-hours domestic routes, and is then converted back to the International version by adding back the center main gear. Much the same as ANA and JAL remove the winglets from 747-400's for the same reason and purpose. This is done to "average" out the flight hours and cycles across the fleet as a whole, and was found to be financially better than what JAL and ANA did previously - buying 747-100SR's, the so called "short range" 747 with strengthened gear and structures to withstand the frequent landings.
As to the wing fairing aft of the wing - this was revised for the MD-11's as one of the improvements for range. In early flight testing, the MD-11's fuel burn was found to be higher than expected, thus reducing its range. AA, Delta were particularly upset by this, and forced McDD to make the improvements or face $$ penalties. McDD did so, and made the changes available not only on late-build DC-10-30's and KC-10A's, but apparently older aircraft could be retrofitted, at the owner/operator's discression. The NW and JAL -40's were built with the early, shorter wing fairing, I have not looked at whether any were modified.
As to how to tell an MD-11 from a DC-10 of any version - yes, the winglets and "beaver" tail cone are huge clues, but the fuselage if the MD-11 is also much, much longer!
Originally posted by ZX1100F1 I know what this poor sap is going through.
I used to have trouble telling the MD-82 apart from the MD-83's.
Me too! I've found that the best way to tell the difference is on the little certificate of authenticity mounted so as to be in clear view at the entrance of the aircraft. It will either state DC-9-82 or DC-9-83 .
Now what has me the most perplexed it the Cessna Citation series of aircraft. There's the I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and X, the Bravo, the Jet, the CJ, the Excel, the Sovereign, and soon to be the Mustang (in case the Jet isn't small enough for you), and these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Some have high tails, some cruciform tails, and some have mid height tails. Some have straight tapered wings, some have swept wings, some have a puffed out wing junction box and some don't. Some have the nose of a X and the tail of a VII.
My theory is that they get towards the end of the quarter and then take all the left over parts, put them together and sell it as a new Citation. But whatever they come up with, it beats the crapp out of what I fly
Any Citation experts out there that can help clarify all this mud for me?
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As to the wing fairing aft of the wing - The NW and JAL -40's were built with the early, shorter wing fairing, I have not looked at whether any were modified
That'll be my project for the week--checking out DC-10-40 wing fairings. (Will also check DC-10-30 and MD-11 for comparison). Thanks for the info. (Luckily, I fly through MSP often enough that I have many of my own DC-10-40 pics)
Originally posted by FLYFRONTIER Now what has me the most perplexed it the Cessna Citation series of aircraft. There's the I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, and X, the Bravo, the Jet, the CJ, the Excel, the Sovereign, and soon to be the Mustang (in case the Jet isn't small enough for you), and these are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Some have high tails, some cruciform tails, and some have mid height tails. Some have straight tapered wings, some have swept wings, some have a puffed out wing junction box and some don't. Some have the nose of a X and the tail of a VII.
I could be wrong, but I thought there were only 9 types of Citations- CJ1, CJ2, CJ3, Bravo, Encore, Excel, Sovereign, X, and Mustang. I think Citation I is CJ1, II is CJ2, III is CJ3, IV is Bravo etc. Check out their website for some info Cessna Citation Website and check out this comparison between the different models Citation Comparison
Originally posted by BA319 I could be wrong, but I thought there were only 9 types of Citations- CJ1, CJ2, CJ3, Bravo, Encore, Excel, Sovereign, X, and Mustang. I think Citation I is CJ1, II is CJ2, III is CJ3, IV is Bravo etc. Check out their website for some info Cessna Citation Website and check out this comparison between the different models Citation Comparison
The CitationJet and CitationJet2 are much smaller than the I and II. Different aircraft, certified for single pilot ops and with T-tails.
My count is 13 excluding the not yet born Mustang but I think their might be more.
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*Fanjet 500, later Citation 500: original production version first flown September 1969. Production version entered service 1971.
*Citation I: enhanced performance version of the Citation 500, introduced 1976. Compared to the Citation 500, the wingspan was longer, higher gross operating weight, and more powerful JT15D-1A engines.
*Citation I/SP: Special performance version of the Citation I (previously dubbed the Citation 501), introduced in 1977. Last production version of the orignal Citation, last one delivered in 1985. Replaced by the CitationJet. The I/SP is certified for single-pilot operation, but the I and 500 are not.
*Citation II: development of the Citation I originally designated the Citation 550, featuring a fuselage stretch (max seating of 10), longer span wings, more powerful JT15D-4 engines, and increase baggage storage capacity. Certified in 1978.
*Citation II/SP: single-pilot version of the Citation II.
*Citation S/II: based on the Citation II but certified for single-pilot operation, The S/II featured aerodynamic improvements with a new supercritical wing based on what had been developed for the Citation III, and newer JT15D-4B engines. Certified in 1984 and temporarily replaced the Citation II in production until 1985 when the Citation II was reintroduced.
*Citation Bravo: based on the Citation S/II, but with newer PW530A engines, modern cockpit avionics (the Honeywell Primus suite), redesigned interior based on the Citation Ultra, and trailing link main landing gear legs. Certified in 1996, replaced both the Citation II and S/II in production. Current production standard that replaces the I/II series.
*Citation V: development of the Citation I, previously designated Citation 560. The Citation V series is a development of the Citation II/SP. Compared to the Citation II and II/SP, the V series have a slight fuselage stretch and more powerful JT15 engines. The Citation V was certified in 1988.
*Citation Ultra: based on the Citation V with more advanced avionics featuring the Honeywell Primus suite. The Ultra was certified in 1994. Also features an advanced supercritical wing based on the design work for the S/II and Bravo series.
*Citation Ultra Encore: an Ultra with new trailing link main landing gear legs, new fuel efficient PW535 engines, increased fuel payload, redesigned interior and improved systems. Current production standard of the V series.
*Citation III: Originally the Citation 650, the III is larger all-new design to supplement the smaller Citation I/II/V series. Features a swept supercritical wing, T-tail, new fuselage, and Garrett TFE731 turbofans. Certified in 1982.
*Citation VI: low-cost derivative of the Citation III with a standard interior (no customization options) and simpler cockpit avionics. Only 39 were built 1991-1995.
*Citation VII: certified in 1992, the Citation VII is a Citation III with systems improvements and more powerful Garrett engines for better hot/high performance. The VII is still in production, replacing the III/VI series.
*Citation X: Cessna's flagship business jet (desginated the 750) first certified in 1996. All new fuselage, sharply swept supercritical wings, FADEC-equipped Allison AE3007 engines, and whole host aerodynamic features to facilitate its high cruise speed. The achievements of the Citation X were so significant, the engineering and test team was awarded the Collier Trophy in 1997.
*Citation X/SP: increased performance version of the Citation X upcoming that will enhance primarily its range/fuel burn.
*Citation Excel: the Model 560 combines a shortened version of the Citation X's fuselage with the advanced supercritical straight wings of the Citation Ultra and new PW545 engines. Certified in 1998.
*Citation Sovereign: the Model 680 features a stretched Excel fuselage combined with all-new supercritical wing with, along with the horizontal tailplane, features a new planform. Uses the PW306 (same engines as on the 329JET).
*CitationJet: The Model 525 replaces the orignal I/II series with the same forward fuselage with an all new wing, new Williams FJ44 engines, and a T-tail. EFIS avionics are standard, as is single-pilot operation. Certified in 1993.
*CitationJet CJ1: A CitationJet 525 with Collins Pro Line 21 cockpit avionics suite and an increased operational gross weight (primarily fuel/payload).
*CitationJet CJ2: stretched CJ1 with more powerful FJ44-2C engines, longer span wings, increased area tail.
*CitationJet CJ3: further stretch of the CJ2 with even longer wings, larger tail, and FADEC controls on more powerful FJ44 engines.
*Citation Mustang: all new light jet aircraft to compete with the likes of the Eclipse 500, smallest of the Citation family past or present. High aspect ratio supercritical wings, T-tail, and sleek contours and oval windows compared the rest of the Citation family.
Thanks a lot there JP! You are the master. Now I just need to print this list out so I know what the heck I'm talking about.
So there was no Citation IV? Or was it a plane that never came to be?
Oh, BTW, the way I can tell a MD-11 from a DC-10-30:
The MD-11 usually has a sticker on it that say's MD-11. Oh yeah, and it says so on the certificate of authenticity (airworthiness certificate)
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Originally posted by FLYFRONTIER So there was no Citation IV? Or was it a plane that never came to be?
Somewhere around 1989 or so Cessna proposed the CitationIV (Model 670) which was to be an extended-range version of the Citation III, but got cancelled before it was built as the improvements slated for the Citation VII made more sense given the bizjet market at the time.
How to distinguish a DC10-30 from a MD-11?
)
How I know the difference!
... I watch these planes every night and its just a shame that the model doesn't catch the magnitude of its wing spand..
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