Travelin' Man

The Airlines are taking advantage of the WTC dissaster and are lobbying for a $15 billion subsidy to help save their industry. The money would be used to limit liabilities, provide loans to struggling airlines, and provide capital to keep several airlines out of Bankruptcy.

As a tax payer I am having a hard time with their request. The airlines deserve no help from the US tax payer, and as hard as it sounds, if several go out of business, then too bad.

For years the major airlines have gotten away with screwing the Average taxpayer. Late flights, crappy service, and overpriced flights have been the norm. They have a fair structure that is just plane BS. Why should one seat sell for $89 and the one next to it sell for $1,500? If a plane is late because of the Airline, we still pay full fare. United Airlines lost hundreds of millions with their failed US Airways merger. American practiced underhanded tactics to help drive Legend out of business. Do we reward these companies behavior with a gift from the US government?

Funny, I see Continental laying off 12,000 employees, but I didn't see their top management take a decrease in salary. Nope, lay off the tax payer employee so Gordon can go out and get another Harley Davidson. I doubt we will see Wolf and Dutta do anything that would affect their income, but they will be quick to fire their hard working employees!

Now that United and American Airlines are effected by a terrorist act, it is interesting to see them ask the government to bail them out. Did Pan Am get a break from Uncle Sam after the Lockerbie Incident? Nope, in fact United and American took advantage of Pan Am prediciment and ultimately drove them out of business. So why should AA and UAL get help now?

If the tax payers do bail out the Airline Industry then we deserve something in return. I would like to see a flat fixed price structure for all clases of service on all flights (no more lame fare games and screwing over the business travler!). They need to get rid of the Saturday stayover requirements, lost baggage limits, and overscheduling of flights. Get rid of the rescheduling fee and all those bogus restrictions! They need to treat their customers like they care and perhaps reconsider their relationships with travel agents.

Fact is that the airline industry created the majority of their problems. This isn't anything new. So why do we have to pay for their mismanagement and failed ventures?

DirtyBird

Bailout the little fellas, like Air Tran, Midway, Jet Blue, let the big guys eat the sh*t sandwich, especially American Airlines.

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Don Brent

The subsidy could and probably will take the form of the Federal Government assuming the responsibility for Airport and Airline security. This burden is now on the airlines and, should the government take over, would certainly be a financial relief. To what scale, however, I do not know.

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tdh8192

I agree with you, Travelin' Man.

Don't you just love it when CEOs, COOs, etc., make statements about how important their employees are? That is, until something happens and the terminations begin... after all, nothing matters except 'share-holder value', right?

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Ed Krzyzowski

My first concern would be the employees.If the airlines get no help from the government that could be a lot of peope out of work with nowhere to go since all airlines are in the same boat.
Or,is it possible that the airlines could get through this without cutting jobs?

Later

Ed

Jim McDonald

I abhor the thought of EVER using my tax dollars to bail out ANY corporation.

That said, I also abhor the FAA shutting down our airspace for as long as it has, including private aircraft. The longer they keep the planes out of the skys, the more risk airlines are of financial disaster.

I would, however, support tax credits to the airline industry and those industries most affected by this disaster as a way of assistance.

But NEVER any subsidies ever....no way no how!

Sentinel Chicken

Tough one there, T-Man. However it's important to note that our economy depends on the airlines not just for passenger travel but also for commerce in the forms of cargo/parcels/mail that is transported in the belly holds of passenger jets. Airports as well are significant ecomonic engines that help drive local economies. DFW is estimated to generate 14 billion dollars a year for the North Texas economy both directly and indirectly. With a decline in passengers and reduction in flights, this will affect not just the airlines but associated industries, from hotels and restaraunts to catering services and maintenance suppliers. What we're seeing in the airlines' finances is only the beginning of a potential cascade effect that will ripple into the general economy.

Like the airlines' service or not, they and the airports they serve are critical parts of our national infrastructure and as such ought to be treated as critical. The big question then becomes how?

Previous administrations in addition to George W. Bush's have either threatened intervention in airline labor disputes or have actually taken action to prevent significant economic disruptions in the past. Are current events any different?

The Dept of Transportation, FAA, and federal government should take a potential bailout as an opportunity to put some reforms in the air transportation system in place- I agree with your suggestion that if the taxpayer is going to help the airlines, we should gets something in return from the airline industry in return.

I would hate to see the large scale loss of jobs by the airline employees as a result of the attacks. These terrorists assaulted our economy as well.

But confidence has to be instilled somehow to get the passengers back on the planes. Airlines make their profits on premium-paying business passengers and as these are folks that fly routinely, I suspect we'll be seeing load factors climbing upward hopefully soon as we move into the holidays. It's more likely that the leisure traveler has been spooked more.

Many businesses rely on air travel to conduct business and it's only a matter of time before they have to do what they've always done and that's get on airplanes and travel to see clients, close deals, attend meetings, etc.

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JOHN JOHNSON

Well, To express my opinion......

Minor airliners should be the first to get the bailout. Secondly such as AA or UA which their jets was used as a weapon should be compensated because it is an act of war against the government not the airliner. The compensate should be strictly be base on the fact of loss caused by this tragedy. ( Including refunds of their tickets to the flyer that cancelled their flight plans, compensate the parking fees or their aircrafts, embargo the workers' from their duty due to FAA's order to stop operation, and etc like this.) I DO NOT support the bailout to cover the CEO's bonuses, repair aircraft, renovation of their terminals, order new planes, and other UNRELATED to tragedy!

Before the bailout should begin I think the CEO must prove that their salary is being reduced and provide more loyality to employees ( Why? Because employees are taking their risk just like the firefighters and police officers that may further cause by terrorist. Pride is NECESSARY for those employees to identify those IDIOTS!!!!!!!!) and prove that their over-spending is to be under the budget control. Otherwise I think it is wise to start with small airliners' industry and to " go out of business-soon" airliner industries. Also to compensate the facts as mentioned above. Any majority airliners industries should not get bailout in hurry and they need to go thur " red tape" to get compensate by provide the evidences of the bill.

Increase the security of airports and to ensure the safety of everyone should get this fund! and should be under the Government's responsible to ensure the public safety. Keep in mind that it is not airliners' responsible to provide security measures. Airliners' responsible is to transport the people and safety within their property Otherwise such as check ups, terimals, and etc should be handle by professional law enforcements (Governments). We should focus and fund the more money on those security measures. I do not think airliners deserves to get this " too much bail out" for their advantages. (You know how those stupidity managements care today? Theirselves and ***-kissers-only. Not the employees' benefits even through that did a lot job for them!!!)

mrne83

Although it is true that top level executives still make a lot of money and profit nicely it is not that simple.
Many people read bailout and what it seems is that the government is handing out money. It is really a matter of the government allowing the airlines to forgo paying taxes and other restrictions for awhile until they can overcome their financial problems. Many pilots and airline employees live in my area and they are all telling me that there are some serious and very real financial problems after the WTC and Pentagon attacks for American and especially for United and Continental. American just assumed over 3 billion dollars in debt from TWA along with thousands of employees and hundreds of aircraft. Whether we like it or not, American Airlines saved thousands of jobs by taking over TWA. Think for a moment what would have happened if TWA folded and nobody assumed their debt or hired their employees.
The problem with our elected officials is that they take revenue that hasn't been collected yet to propose their future budgets and spending. When something bad happens the government has a tendency to say things like " it'll cost too much" or " we may have to bailout" so and so. How can a tax cut cost too much money? Seems like an oxymoron.
The biggest problem with our Congress is overspending. They spend future money not yet available and they also had spent every penny of the "projected" surplus, remember?. I guess or tax money burns a hole in their pockets, that's why they need to spend it.

Bill G

Those of you who have said no bail out, thanks so much for the concern for my and the hundreds of thousands of other airline employees jobs. Thanks so much for thinking of the little guys!

Very pissed off!
Bill

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Travelin' Man

Maybe all of us taxpayers should have a chance to forgo paying our taxes until we are all back on our feet?

Bill, none of here want to see anyone lose their job. All the hard working employees of the airlines are victims of the terrorists as well as their own management. The airline industry was having some major problems before the attack. Midway was a good example. One day of lost revenue and that was all it took to level her. But that was going to happen anyway, just upped the time table.

I thin the industry will recover quickly, and after a few weeks, travel will resume to normal levels. Sure airlines lost a lot of money last week, but that is business. No guarantees. If airlines are on such thin ice financially, then perhaps we may need to go back to government regulation of the industry? I will do my part and continue my regular travel routine. I will not live my life in fear.

Also, I think it is sad that Continental cut so many jobs so quickly. I am sure they had other options that they could have used, but firing 12,000 employees most likely seemed the easiest choice. But why so quick? Are they overacting? Why not file for Bankruptcy protection? I mean, how can an airline do such a major restructing in such a short time? Someting is wrong here. I think they were going to layoff these employees before the WTC and are using the event as an excuse. But that is just an opinion.

DFW

When the FAA shut down the airspace for 4 or 5 days like it did, that's what really hurt the airlines. That has never happened before, and that was VERY costly to the airlines. I know that the FAA wanted to get their "security" measures taken care of before opening up again. But you know what, they should have been doing that YEARS ago. Now the airlines are suffering because of the idiots in our government never wanted to do anything about security until now.

Bill G

The more I think about the above comments, the madder I get. I usually am the most easy going guy with a fuse a mile long, however this has cut it to nothing. As an airline employee who has a family to support I am pissed at some of my supposidly "friends" comments. I think we would all be better off, if I stay away from this forum for awhile, if not forever. I've had more than my share of negativity and uncertainity for awhile to deal with it in this forum.
I am out of here!

Bill

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JOHN JOHNSON

Oh No! My little Bill.

Please dont be pissed off........ I do care employees. Look at my statement. I do NOT care those management who care for theirselves! I am ALL FOR support conserve the employees or hefty raises for them. BUT FOR MANAGEMENT HELL NO WAY! They are being overpaid for drink coffee, screwing their beautiful secretaries, and chitchats while people like you and me sweat and work our butt off. Pride going down in the drain. Waiting for something bad to SURPRISE hit us. How can managament repair the pride? Tell 100,000 employees to get out? Is that the punishment you deserve? No No. Managaments should be the first of 100,000 to go!!!!!!!!!!!
We need to RESTORE our prides and I think things will go great after pride are being restore. NO NO MORE SUBCONTRACTS NO MORE MINIUM WAGES!!!!!!! NO MORE "CHEAP-LABOR" THOSE DESTROYS OUR PRIDE AND COUNTRY.

Bill Keep in mind I am all for employees include DeltaKP, Contientalcrew, and you. I'd hate to see if you all should lose job but lets hope NOT!

aklein707

T-Man put it oh, so elequently. Bill, it is not the lack of concern for the "little guy", au contraire, it is!
I have zero sympathy for the airlines. Since deregulation, they've done nothing but screw their loyal customers with delayed flights, shoddy service, and minimal security, which caught up to them on 9-11. Amazing how AA & UA had a bill in front of the congress within 24 hours of the attack, making them not responsible. I think they are fully responsible! If stock value and the "bottom line" weren't so prevelant in their thinking, then perhaps things would be different in that industry.
Are you aware that 2 weeks ago AA & UA cut travel agent's commissions again, capped at $20. What are those people supposed to live on?
I see Mr. Gordon Bethune cutting 12,000 jobs at CO, but did I see him offer to take a salary cut?

As a result, the Hotel and Food Service industry (Flight Kitchens, Bars & Restaurants etc) will also lose millions. Shall we bail them out too?

We live in a Capitalist, not Socialist society. That is the attraction of the United States. The government should be responsible for protecting their citizens, and defending them, not providing for them. It is time the US Government acts, and acts with a the firepower the terrorists and rogue states will understand, ONCE AND FOR ALL!

Marc Hookerman

I have to agree with Jim on this. No way would I support government subsidies, but tax credits to keep things afloat in the industry is fine.

Commercial air transportation and our country's commerce go hand in hand. Most people do not realize that, and in order to keep things above water, there needs to be some sort of relief to the airline industry.

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99GR81

The airlines form a "vital national interest" and must be supported.

While I agree with others on the forum who would like to see the airlines help themselves, this issue transcends simple economics and CEO pay packages.

We must have a vital, robust, and effective national air traffic network. We must have passenger traffic, cargo traffic, etc. Commerce in this country cannot be made to grind to a halt.

There will be much more consolidation in the industry in the coming months. As I write this, AMR Corp, is down $15 in heavy trading. (Monday at 12:50pm)

Steve

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Steve

Jim & DFW,
While the FAA was responsible for shutting down US airspace on the 11th, the decision to keep it closed and how to re-open it is coming from the White House. The way things are being opened and closed; Part 135 only, then Part 135/121/129, then Part 121 Supplementals, add Part 91, revoke Part 129... is confusing as hell, even to us in the FAA. I would like nothing more than to see some "normal ops."

Steve

DeltaKP

T-man, You live in Aspen, wouldn't you want the government to do something for you if they shut down the ski resorts and devistated the economy of Aspen. This was a government action that caused this problem and it should be the government who helps. The airlines were already having a bad year, this just killed it. The flights I'm working are now leaving with 10-20 people on them. It's only a matter of time before I feel this first hand. God forbid you ever are in this position. BTW thanks for your concern!

Scott

I would implore the rational DAC'er to seperate tales of shoddy service, predatory marketing and convoluted fare structures from the critical issues necessary to regain stability. None of you need lectures as to how crucial air transportation is to tourism, commerce, industry, and yes, defense. More on that later.
Our failure of 9-11 was security. While the industry certainly lobbied for minimal standards, the FAA ultimately approves and monitors all aspects of safety. Where do we proceed from here?

Federalize airport security. Utilize effectively trained personnel and cutting edge scanning equipment to clear people and their carry-ons AS QUICKLY AS BEFORE 9-11. It can be done and I'm sure you'll be willing to pay the bill.

Harden the cockpit door and employ sky-marshalls on a high percentage of flights. Maybe all?

Minimal and clearly targeted credits and loan guarantees to individual airlines. I don't trust management anymore than you do!

I've read all the preceeding sentiment of "let them eat S***, let them go under", etc. beneath the banner of capitalism. Remember captitalism is a two-edged sword. If you feel airlines have "prospered" at your expense, consider the record patronage (soft economy preceeding 9-11 excepted) of a system statistically safer and faster than any other. You've always had options, be they car, train, mule, or ship.
Bailout or not, I predict significant consolidation ahead. It wasn't long ago we were speaking of diminished consumer choice as a consequence. Airlines will ultimately survive, that is also capitalism at work.

On a personal note, I presumptuously speak for my fellow airline co-workers by promising to remain at your service, job permitting. I'll be thinking of you all as I strap into the pointy end of my 737. So will Bill, as he scans the faces of his charges, cognizant of his role as the tripwire should anything affect your safety.

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uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

Jim McDonald

I'm sorry Bill if you are taking this thread personall, but frankly, my comments are more for the typical corporation who mismanages it's affairs to the point that competition has diminished it's ability as an ongoing concern. As I indicated, I am all for tax assitance and other methods of assistance as it directly relates to the catastrophe and subsequent shutdown of the airway over the USA by the FAA. In addition, there is a lot the Unions can do to help these airlines stay in business.....frankly, saying me, me, me is not the answer.

However, I will never support any kind of bailout! That is not what this country is all about and I am sorry if you think that keeping an ineficient company in business is good business!

Is there anyone here who really thinks that someone else will NOT come along and hire you? Assume Continental goes out of business.....is there NO Airline who would not LOVE to take over the terminals at Houston, Newark or any of Continentals other hubs?? Economics 101 people.....inefficient businesses are driven out, more efficient businesses prevail. It's good for the economy, good for the customers and, in many cases, good for the employees.

I will miss TWA, but frankly, a bailout would have been a WORSE disaster for the American people.

Moose

Gee, I thought it was a TERRORIST action that caused this problem. Now the government and the American people have to fix it.

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Sentinel Chicken

Well said, Scott. I do think that some sort of temporary governmental assistance will be necessary to prevent further economic exacerbation which I'm afraid will push us more toward a general economic recession. Whatever relief provided to the airlines should be oriented towards preventing employee furloughs and perhaps loan guarantees to help with the equipment trust certificates many airlines use for financing. As I understand the airline industry, much of an airline's debt is tied up in these equipment trust certificates. Should an airline fail to make payment and default, the equipment (typically aircraft) goes to the creditor.

Subsidies are out of the question, I don't think we should be giving the airlines a blank check. But I do think some sort of financial assistance is necessary in at least the short term. Airlines' market capitalizations are being wiped out wholesale in the market today and I worry that that is only the tip of the iceberg. There are things that can be done without giving management a chance to have their hands in the cookie jar of the American Taxpayer.

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Jim McDonald