EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE

MarinerOne · 03-19-2008, 05:18 PM

More delays and more problems!!!

Key 787 Customer: Wing Has Design Problems

Mar 19, 2008

The largest customer for Boeing's 787 is predicting another six-month slip in deliveries and has for the first time raised the specter that the new passenger jet's troubles extend beyond production delays to design problems.

International Lease Finance Corp. (ILFC) Chairman Steven Udvar-Hazy told a JPMorgan investor conference that structural design changes have to be made to the 787's center wing box, a move that would require retrofits of the first two flight-test airplanes that are being produced. Calling the state of the program "not pretty," Udvar-Hazy said he doesn't see the 787 making its first flight until this fall and predicts another year will be needed after that for certification. That means the first 787 delivery, to Japan's All Nippon Airways, would be pushed back until the third quarter of 2009, about a year and a half behind the original date of May 2008.

Aviation Week : Key 787 Customer: Wing Has Design Problems

Mr Hazy told a JPMorgan Chase conference that the state of the Dreamliner programme was “not pretty”. He said first deliveries would be delayed for at least another six months because its centre wing box – which holds the wings in place – needed to be redesigned.

Boeing refused to comment on the specifics of the redesign work but said Mr Hazy was not painting an accurate picture of the overall programme. “We are doing some redesign work but things are more complex than what he said,” said Yvonne Leach, for Boeing.

“There’s a whole load of things going on.”

FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & defence - Boeing admits Dreamliner rethink

As some of you may know, I was PLANNING on going to Seattle with my wife to watch the first flight - LAST SEPTEMBER!!!

I guess we just better schedule a trip up there REGARDLESS just to see a couple Mariners' games and have dinner at the Space Needle.

At least there CAN'T be any delays in THOSE plans ...

!!!

...

TexAV8R · 03-19-2008, 05:35 PM

That's gotta hurt!

MarinerOne · 03-19-2008, 06:30 PM

At least I can always "imagine" my diecast version flying ...

Flying Kangaroo · 03-19-2008, 06:39 PM

I bought a beautiful Air Korea 787 yesterday and going by the scale, it seems to have engines just as big or slightly bigger than the A380.

Speaking of, which plane is the 787 competitor?

MarinerOne · 03-19-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Kangaroo

Speaking of, which plane is the 787 competitor?

The upcoming A350-XWB-XXL

Flying Kangaroo · 03-19-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinerOne

The upcoming A350-XWB-XXL

Wow. Nice looking plane. 2013 though? Still a while to go. If the scale models are correct, the 787 isn't much smaller than the A340. It seems to have a wider body and is a bit shorter than the A340.

I'm hoping we actually get to see the 787 sooner rather than later. Things are not looking good though.

Jboulin94 · 03-19-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarinerOne

At least I can always "imagine" my diecast version flying ...

Man, thats a nice model! I still don't know if I should go for it now, or wait for the re-release....

knma'91 · 03-20-2008, 02:28 AM

This is no surprise.

TexAV8R · 03-20-2008, 09:09 AM

From FlightBlogger..

FlightBlogger Analysis: 787 Power-On To Slip to June, Delivery Date Unclear (Flightblogger)

QFA388 · 03-20-2008, 09:26 AM

Can't be bothered reading the article but does it mention the apparent wing box redesign issue too? I read on a.net that they plane couldn't fly cause they can't retract the undercarriage and a heap of other woes in fundamental designs, eg undercarriage doors, wing box, barrels. Note that much of the a.net stuff is speculative until someone from B speaks.

This has to be making airlines nervous and I read that QF may be high on the list to want a cheque. This is definately not following the script and it appears some of the criticism is at Boeing management for keeping quiet and not fessing up to the real issues and problems being encountered.

I hope they get this right just as Airbus did with the A380 and all ends up smelling of roses cause although the most successful selling plane in history, that can equally turn to being the largest monetary values ever being paid as compensation claims, which is going to be very painful to endure.

This will be interesting to watch.

QFA388 · 03-20-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jboulin94

Man, thats a nice model! I still don't know if I should go for it now, or wait for the re-release....

Get it if you can cause it is a beauty.
I love my little 400sc version.

MarinerOne · 03-20-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QFA388

Get it if you can cause it is a beauty.
I love my little 400sc version.

That's right ... they're so nice I bought TWO!!!

The ONLY negative is that they are "tail heavy" and tip backwards with the slightest shelf jolt.

Here's a little bit more about the Boeing Dream ... errrrrrrrrrrrr ... Delay-liner story.

MarinerOne · 03-20-2008, 05:43 PM

One positive note on the 787 program was announced by Boeing today - the horizontal stabilizer has passed its static test ...

QFA388 · 03-20-2008, 05:57 PM

I don't mean to be funny or sarcastic, but is that all that has passed static testing so far?

MarinerOne · 03-20-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QFA388

I don't mean to be funny or sarcastic, but is that all that has passed static testing so far?

...

That's a GOOD question!

That's all that has been announced that I have read ... I know they are testing the wings right now as well, but that hasn't been "passed" - as far as I know.

On a less gloomy note, this pic of the 747 sure looks nice - and at LEAST - Boeing can still be proud of the "Queen of the Skies" ...

MarinerOne · 03-21-2008, 03:15 PM

From bad to worse ... another 6-month delay???

Boeing Acknowledges Redesign Work on Dreamliner - WSJ.com

Boeing Acknowledges Redesign Work on Dreamliner

By J. LYNN LUNSFORD
March 21, 2008; Page A10

Boeing Co., reacting to reports that design problems have further delayed the 787 Dreamliner, acknowledged it had to strengthen a critical piece of the plane, but said the setback wasn't the "pacing item" on the jet program.

In a statement Thursday, Boeing said it had to make some "improvements" to the center wing box. The center wing box is a massive piece of structure to which the airplane's wings are attached. Besides carrying structural load during flight, it also serves as a large fuel tank.

"It is a normal part of the development of a new airplane to discover need for improvements, and that is what we are experiencing on the 787," Boeing said.

Boeing's admission that such a key part of the plane had to be redesigned comes amid other problems. The multiple issues have led to a growing belief among customers and suppliers that the program, now nine months behind schedule, is slipping even further behind.

People familiar with the matter said Boeing will likely announce an additional six-month delay when it delivers an update next month. Also, Boeing will likely scale back its estimate of how many airplanes it will deliver in 2009, to fewer than half of the original estimate of 109 airplanes, to allow its suppliers to gradually increase their output.

Mystère · 03-21-2008, 05:01 PM

As things go, we may well see the A350 entering service BEFORE the 787 !!

B773ER · 03-21-2008, 05:06 PM

Funny, I had thought the very same thing! But happy to read Boeing has fixed the wing box problem.

QFA388 · 03-21-2008, 10:56 PM

This is very bad!
Forget the stupid A vs B arguments which go on.

You can also forget the Customer compensation claims which will hit the financial profitability of the program but with fewer deliveries, this will hit directly at operating cash flow as planes are delivered they are trades as sales in the financials.
Without that cash flow, it may implicate their ability to support, maintain and developmental activities on other aircraft programs. Now may be a good time to tear up the blueprints for the 748i, just stretch and re-engine the 74F to satisfy those freighter orders.

This will IMO seriously impact any credibility their protests and actions against the Tanker decision might have had.
Sadly although everyone lauded the huge sales records, as they say "the bigger they are the harder they fall" and in this case it means a significant amount of customers and aircraft quantities to deal with.
Their staff will definately be deserving of their pay cheques.

QFA388 · 03-21-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B773ER

Funny, I had thought the very same thing! But happy to read Boeing has fixed the wing box problem.

They haven't from what I am reading. Apparently it's a redesign to permit the undercarriage to be retracted and lowered.

MarinerOne · 03-24-2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QFA388

They haven't from what I am reading. Apparently it's a redesign to permit the undercarriage to be retracted and lowered.

...

I think that would be useful in order to reduce aerodynamic drag.

03-19-2008, 05:18 PM	#1
MarinerOne Insane Collector Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: SAN Age: 39 Posts: 1,196	EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE More delays and more problems!!! Key 787 Customer: Wing Has Design Problems Mar 19, 2008 The largest customer for Boeing's 787 is predicting another six-month slip in deliveries and has for the first time raised the specter that the new passenger jet's troubles extend beyond production delays to design problems. International Lease Finance Corp. (ILFC) Chairman Steven Udvar-Hazy told a JPMorgan investor conference that structural design changes have to be made to the 787's center wing box, a move that would require retrofits of the first two flight-test airplanes that are being produced. Calling the state of the program "not pretty," Udvar-Hazy said he doesn't see the 787 making its first flight until this fall and predicts another year will be needed after that for certification. That means the first 787 delivery, to Japan's All Nippon Airways, would be pushed back until the third quarter of 2009, about a year and a half behind the original date of May 2008. Aviation Week : Key 787 Customer: Wing Has Design Problems Mr Hazy told a JPMorgan Chase conference that the state of the Dreamliner programme was “not pretty”. He said first deliveries would be delayed for at least another six months because its centre wing box – which holds the wings in place – needed to be redesigned. Boeing refused to comment on the specifics of the redesign work but said Mr Hazy was not painting an accurate picture of the overall programme. “We are doing some redesign work but things are more complex than what he said,” said Yvonne Leach, for Boeing. “There’s a whole load of things going on.” FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & defence - Boeing admits Dreamliner rethink As some of you may know, I was PLANNING on going to Seattle with my wife to watch the first flight - LAST SEPTEMBER!!! I guess we just better schedule a trip up there REGARDLESS just to see a couple Mariners' games and have dinner at the Space Needle. At least there CAN'T be any delays in THOSE plans ... !!! ... Last edited by MarinerOne; 03-19-2008 at 06:00 PM.

03-19-2008, 05:35 PM	#2
TexAV8R Senior Collector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 283	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE That's gotta hurt! __________________ Stay on the bomb run, boys! I'm gonna get them doors open if it harelips ever'body on Bear Creek!(Major T.J "King Kong" from the movie Dr. Strangelove)

03-19-2008, 06:30 PM	#3
MarinerOne Insane Collector Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: SAN Age: 39 Posts: 1,196	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE At least I can always "imagine" my diecast version flying ...

03-19-2008, 06:39 PM	#4
Flying Kangaroo Flancrest Enterprises Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sydney, NSW Age: 24 Posts: 37	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE I bought a beautiful Air Korea 787 yesterday and going by the scale, it seems to have engines just as big or slightly bigger than the A380. Speaking of, which plane is the 787 competitor? __________________ What the hell is an aluminum falcon?!

03-20-2008, 02:28 AM	#8
knma'91 First Kup Red Belt Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: California Age: 22 Posts: 277	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE This is no surprise. __________________ Private Pilot Single Engine 03/09/2007 Private Pilot Multi Engine 05/26/2007 Instrument Rated 10/20/2007 Commercial Multi Engine 12/11/2007 Commercial Single Engine 01/21/2008

03-20-2008, 09:09 AM	#9
TexAV8R Senior Collector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 283	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE From FlightBlogger.. FlightBlogger Analysis: 787 Power-On To Slip to June, Delivery Date Unclear (Flightblogger) __________________ Stay on the bomb run, boys! I'm gonna get them doors open if it harelips ever'body on Bear Creek!(Major T.J "King Kong" from the movie Dr. Strangelove)

03-20-2008, 09:26 AM	#10
QFA388 Watching the hobby die Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,208	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE Can't be bothered reading the article but does it mention the apparent wing box redesign issue too? I read on a.net that they plane couldn't fly cause they can't retract the undercarriage and a heap of other woes in fundamental designs, eg undercarriage doors, wing box, barrels. Note that much of the a.net stuff is speculative until someone from B speaks. This has to be making airlines nervous and I read that QF may be high on the list to want a cheque. This is definately not following the script and it appears some of the criticism is at Boeing management for keeping quiet and not fessing up to the real issues and problems being encountered. I hope they get this right just as Airbus did with the A380 and all ends up smelling of roses cause although the most successful selling plane in history, that can equally turn to being the largest monetary values ever being paid as compensation claims, which is going to be very painful to endure. This will be interesting to watch. Last edited by QFA388; 03-20-2008 at 09:28 AM.

03-20-2008, 05:43 PM	#13
MarinerOne Insane Collector Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: SAN Age: 39 Posts: 1,196	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE One positive note on the 787 program was announced by Boeing today - the horizontal stabilizer has passed its static test ...

03-20-2008, 05:57 PM	#14
QFA388 Watching the hobby die Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,208	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE I don't mean to be funny or sarcastic, but is that all that has passed static testing so far?

03-21-2008, 03:15 PM	#16
MarinerOne Insane Collector Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: SAN Age: 39 Posts: 1,196	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE From bad to worse ... another 6-month delay??? Boeing Acknowledges Redesign Work on Dreamliner - WSJ.com Boeing Acknowledges Redesign Work on Dreamliner By J. LYNN LUNSFORD March 21, 2008; Page A10 Boeing Co., reacting to reports that design problems have further delayed the 787 Dreamliner, acknowledged it had to strengthen a critical piece of the plane, but said the setback wasn't the "pacing item" on the jet program. In a statement Thursday, Boeing said it had to make some "improvements" to the center wing box. The center wing box is a massive piece of structure to which the airplane's wings are attached. Besides carrying structural load during flight, it also serves as a large fuel tank. "It is a normal part of the development of a new airplane to discover need for improvements, and that is what we are experiencing on the 787," Boeing said. Boeing's admission that such a key part of the plane had to be redesigned comes amid other problems. The multiple issues have led to a growing belief among customers and suppliers that the program, now nine months behind schedule, is slipping even further behind. People familiar with the matter said Boeing will likely announce an additional six-month delay when it delivers an update next month. Also, Boeing will likely scale back its estimate of how many airplanes it will deliver in 2009, to fewer than half of the original estimate of 109 airplanes, to allow its suppliers to gradually increase their output. Last edited by MarinerOne; 03-21-2008 at 04:39 PM.

03-21-2008, 05:01 PM	#17
Mystère SO.30P Bretagne Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Midway between Omaha Beach and Paris. Age: 38 Posts: 1,123	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE As things go, we may well see the A350 entering service BEFORE the 787 !! __________________

03-21-2008, 05:06 PM	#18
B773ER Retro Randy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Seattle (West Seattle) Age: 50 Posts: 3,327	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE Funny, I had thought the very same thing! But happy to read Boeing has fixed the wing box problem. __________________

03-21-2008, 10:56 PM	#19
QFA388 Watching the hobby die Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,208	Re: EXTRA!!! Boeing 787 DELAY-liner UPDATE This is very bad! Forget the stupid A vs B arguments which go on. You can also forget the Customer compensation claims which will hit the financial profitability of the program but with fewer deliveries, this will hit directly at operating cash flow as planes are delivered they are trades as sales in the financials. Without that cash flow, it may implicate their ability to support, maintain and developmental activities on other aircraft programs. Now may be a good time to tear up the blueprints for the 748i, just stretch and re-engine the 74F to satisfy those freighter orders. This will IMO seriously impact any credibility their protests and actions against the Tanker decision might have had. Sadly although everyone lauded the huge sales records, as they say "the bigger they are the harder they fall" and in this case it means a significant amount of customers and aircraft quantities to deal with. Their staff will definately be deserving of their pay cheques. Last edited by QFA388; 03-21-2008 at 11:04 PM.

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