JOHN JOHNSON

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8318278/

Time to bury Boeing?

Those geekidiots at Boeing that fcuked-up the deal deserve a good assspank!!!!!!!! The same goes to Condit for killed the MD-11 program as I believe that USAF would have made such purchases of as many as 60 MD-11 and probably 40 767's into their tanker fleets.

By the way, Hey Russian-guy..... Look at the news? Great ecomony for the South. Now you, Eurpo, can gripe! (Toasting) Moonshiner and Thankfullness for the Global ecomony like you stated.

AirbUS rocks!

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JOHN JOHNSON

http://www.airliners.net/discussions....main/2184415/ !!!!!

Boeing finally Admitted their grave mistake for destroy MD-11's tools.


What a coincidence!?!? I always believe that Boeing was after the MD-11 after merge in order to kill it in hastle manner! Again, I contiune to believe that MD-11 is one of the best aircraft in the world, even with contiuning efforts to improve it's modifications!

BOEING, SHAME SHAME SHAME YOU!

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Jetsetter

Johnny, if Airbus bought Boeing, do you think they would keep making the 777?

Come on buddy, I'm 14 and apparently I know more about market competition than you. Stop looking for reasons to say how much you hate the Bush administration.

Have you heard of outside? Go to a park, get out, do something other than bitching about the government on model aircraft forums.

Sven Nikolaus

The MD-11 was always a programme haunted by bad luck. Like Lockheed's Tristar: excellent aircraft but no economic success.

JOHN JOHNSON

Oh my God that a kid want to deal with my pea-brain! Ok, Hey, Watermelon-brain. Care if I ask you how much are you earning? Come on! I am making way more than you are making!

I do not care what is going to happen with an 777 if Airbus buy Boeing out.

Care if I suggest? If you do not like this thread, Do not read. That is very simple. Also, Please challenge with someone regarding to market condition with such as Jim McDonald and his best buddies. I have so much to learn!

Come on....... Fess up what's in your mind......

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Piston 52 Heavy

Why is this thread in this forum anyway?! There is a 1:1 scale forum ya know!

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JOHN JOHNSON

Please pardon me, I want to ask that kiddo over the block that question.....(Jetsetter)

Market Condition......

MD-11 and 777

Price tag $130,000,000 per aircraft v.s. 200,000,000> per aircraft. $70,000,000 difference a piece.

Load factor on two of those are similar but 777 can carry more psgr in 3 classes than the MD-11

777 are rumoured to be known as gas-guzzler as well. Around 10-30% more consumpation than the MD-11! However considering the passanger load factor so 777 seem to win..... When people said that MD-11 is gas guzzler and I do not buy to that. It is engine design that is causing poor result on an MD-11 even they have corrected all of the drag problems. Blame to the engine-makers.

Let me ask you that question, Such Airliners like United and AA have excessive 777 fleets and they are struggling!!!!!! Delta deffering to buy any more of 777..... ETOP costs..... etc etc etc is making 777 costly to have.

I do not personally believe that 777 is a right specification as an MD-11 replacement. It is consider as the between size of MD-11 and 747. Look at those Asia-regions are buying more 777 than they are buying the 747.

Soon we will see the Death of 747 if this trend contiunes.

Let me ask you question: After 777F unveiled..... Why don't I see 100+ in order? It is $$$$$$$$$ friggling expensive $$$$$$$$$! Just to carry a cargo of dogs****? You can buy a MD-11 for $10,000,000 to 30,000,000 depending on their age and able to fly more years!!! That makes an AAA+++ for cargoliners to make lot of money with less "plane" payments than if they own an 777F.

MD-11 remain in the best market and remain a great demand.

Soon parts will become a problem for the MD-11. Again, Thanks to Boeing!

Overall, 777 won big time is because it is ALL-NEW aircraft. MD-11 is just an another "DC-10". Suppose if MD-11 is ALL-NEW aircraft than the DC-10 at the price of $130,000,000 and better performance result than the MD-11. It will cripple the 777's success. Without a question!

Do search on fuel consumpation that was debated sometime ago....... You will see the chart of aircraft's fuel consumpation by wizard guy.

Come on, I want to hear your market condition on those issues.

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JOHN JOHNSON

I thought this is a 1:1 scale forum? Is it?

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Jimmy Mc Donald Help me!

Jetsetter

Well to start off you apparently think that Boeing forced McDonnell Douglas to let them buy them out. Remember, Douglas was in bankruptcy and was looking for a buyer. When Boeing bought them and paid off their debts, they we're entitiled to do whatever they wanted with Douglas. And the fact of the matter remains that Boeing wanted McDonnell Douglas's military engineering power (which they had a lot of), not their commerical aircraft line.

The 70,000,000 dollar difference probably comes down to development costs. It was a new plane designed from scratch and incorperated the new advances that Boeing had not yet used on other planes, IE, fly by wire. Whether this warrants that big of a price differences is not up to you or me to decide, but rather the people that are paid to work with numbers for a living.

I have absolutly no idea how you can say the 777 or MD-11 are gas guzzlers. Both were engineered in a time when fuel economics were become more obvious, especially to the airlines. In: When people said that MD-11 is gas guzzler and I do not buy to that. It is engine design that is causing poor result on an MD-11 even they have corrected all of the drag problems you're contradicting yourself. You've just said you don't believe that it's a gas guzzler, but you just said the engine design does just that. Paranoid Johnson? Or do you just hate General Electric and Pratt and Whitney?

Okay, now thats just bull****. Your blaming the 777 for these airlines bankruptcy? Maybe your still living in the Nixon era, but in case you didn't realize legacies are finding it harder to make a profit because of LOW COST AIRLINES, HIGH OIL PRICES, AN INTERNATIONAL DECLINE IN AIR TRAVEL BROUGHT ON BY A CERTAIN DAY IN SEPTEMBER, AND A ****TY AIRPORT EXPERIENCE, but not by a plane that makes up 1/75th of their fleet.

What does the 747 have to do with this? If anything your argument is that the 400 seat range of passenger capacity airliners is in the decline?

Or maybe because airlines can carry cargo on passenger aircraft as well? Dedicated freighter aircraft have never been, and most likely will never be, in such demand as one that carries both passengers and people. You can't say that there have been few orders for it because of its price because frankly you don't know. Boeing developed another freighter in addition to the 744F, whats the big deal?

There's not a great demand for MD-11's or MD-80's, because if there was then chances are McDD's Commercial division would still be around.

Parts will become a problem for the MD-11 because the MD-11 is out of production, which is thanks to the shortcomings of Douglas's sales team. New Airbuses are having trouble with finding spares but I don't see you bitching at them.

Overall the 777 won big time because it worked better for airlines. An airline is going to buy what works for them, not what seems nicer or families ties as shown by CR Smiths decision to buy the 707 rather than the DC-7, and even United, which was started by, you guessed it, Boeing. Apparently you don't have the full story because the MD-11 sold 200 frames and the 777-200 alone has sold over 400. Airlines don't give a toss if a plane is new or not, but if its going to make them more money than what the competition has to offer, then they're going to take it.

AIRWEST N9345

I'm impressed Jetsetter...you know your stuff better then 95% of the armchair aviators I've encountered on this forum...and at the age of 14! I think at the end though you meant DC-8 instead of DC-7 concerning the AA C.R. Smith purchase decision. Well done!

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L-1011-Heavy

Where Do You Get Your Info?
THE MD-11's Last Price Tag Of 135,000,000 Dollars Was About The Time A 777 Was $140,000,000.
Infaltion, New Developments (And A Little Boeing Greed Due To The Fact This Is A MONEY MAKING MACHINE)
Brought The 777-2LR & 777-300ER To These Levels, But I Think With Discounts An Airline Can Get Basic Versions Of 200 ERs For About 160-170 Million.
You Can Bet If MDC Was Still In Business, The MD-11 Would Be About 180 Million At Least & Over 200 Million For The Proposed MD-12.

As For Fuel Consumption, The 777 Is About 10% Lower Than An Airbus 340- 5 & 6.
If They Were Such Gas Guzzlers & SOOO Expensive, Why Did American & Delta DUMP Thier MD-11s For 777s?
Airlines Are Revelling At The Performance & Operating Costs.

Airlines Are Not Making Money Overall, Because Of Low Passenger Count, Discount Airlines,
As Cheap As Second Hand MD-11s Are, 20-30% More Fuel Burn Than A 777 Or Airbus, Lack Of Spare Parts(Makes Them Costlier) & Delays Do Not Make For Economic Operations. Delays Are More Expensive Than Buying New Planes.

Don't Get Me Wrong, I Like The MD-11. It Is Unfortunate MDC Is No Longer In Business, And I Would Have LOVED To See The Would Have Been MD-12!

It's Just The Way Things Are.
Peace Out

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The Heavy Armada
"In The Absence Of Excellence, There Is Only Mediocrity."

JOHN JOHNSON

Why AA and DL dumped their MD-11..... (Thanks to union) Pilots' salary. Also performance dont satisfy AA. I believe that airliners had to get rid of MD-11 so no whiners can claim such as "Hey AA is paying better than us or in the opposite." That was part of reorganization in DL.

Let me ask why DL defer get more 764/777? Back to the bottom line (Union) High salary pilots. (Larger seat # = High pay pilots) Look at UA and AA they are being so aggressive and threat such as shred pension in a trash can.

SWA is sitting and laughing their *** off while major airliners are trying to reorganizate to challenge against SWA. I'd not be surprise that UA will have to get rid of 1/2 777 out of their fleets one day.

That is my own view and opinion. Believe whatever you want to.

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JOHN JOHNSON

Why can't you debate the MD-11 and 777?

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Jimmy Mc Donald Help me!

L-1011-Heavy

It's Not A Question Of What I Believe. It's The Facts That I Have Gathered Over The Years.
I Don't Know Anything About The Politics Of What You Are Talking About, But Usually When It Comes To New Aircraft, New Pilot's Contracts Can Kill A New Aircraft Purchase If The Pilot's & Unions Are Too Greedy, As What Just Happened With Air Canada.

And How Can You Compare An airline That Only Has 737s To MD-11s/777s?
SWA I Laughing At EVERYONE. Not Just AA & Delta.
I Also Forgot to Mention Part Of AA's & Deltas Woes Are Poor Management.


And Where Did You Get the Higher Seat Count? The 777-200 Is Nearly Identical To the MD-11 In Passenger Capacity.
As For Getting Rid Of Half The 777 Fleet?
Actually, United Already Parked 777s In the Desert.
Air india Now Is Leasing Two Of Them.

Of Course Any Airline Will Get Rid Of A Large Aircraft If Lower Than 50 % Capacity.
Just Look At What Happened On The Day Of 911, The Pinnacle Days Of Air Travel. 40 Pax On A 170 Seat 757.
76 & 84 Pax Respectively On 230 Seat 767s. And So On. Planes Of Every Size
Operateted With Far Too Few Passengers.

And What About These Airlines That Dumped MD-11s & Now Have 777s.
Korean, Malaysia, Thai.
So, Let's Talk About The Airlines That DIDN'T Dump Aircraft For MD-11s.
Air France, Cathay Pacific, British Airways, KLM (Operate Side By Side, Prefer 777s) Varig (Another side By Side Operater, Also prefer 777s)
Vietnam Airlines, Japan Airlines ( Another Side By side Operator) ANA, Singapore, EVA Air, Asiana. Lauda, Air India, Emirates, JAS, Saudia ( Another Side By Side Operator) Kenya Airlines, Kuwait Airlines, PIA And On And On.
Can ALL These Airlines Not be Happy With The 777s Performance?
If So, Why Is There Many Years' Waiting List For New 777s?


I Guess These Are Just Opinions Too?

But I Will Tell You What I Believe. Both Aircraft Are Outstanding. Both Aircraft Are Beautiful.
Now That's An Opinion & Not Fact.

__________________

The Heavy Armada
"In The Absence Of Excellence, There Is Only Mediocrity."

JOHN JOHNSON

I am full aware that McD had to sale their co and Boeing bought it. Do search on past threads.... McD managements are the one to be blame for their own screw ups which there was a great opportunities back before that MD-11 program. No need to lecture me that.

McD's military rocks! Now that is under Boeing's control. Tell me why Lockheed won biggest contract on future Fighter jets over Boeing? It looks real so crappy while Boeing's fighter looks so pretty. As Tanker dealing screw ups is a big serious damaging to Boeing which we should be concern of their capability within military's management.......Regardless it is made from a Pro-McD or Pro-Boeing!

There was lot of MD-11 debates and DavidH made a good debates. Why did not you challenge to that? DUH!?

GE is one of my favorite! Everyone in this forum knows but you and your buddy Air West? DUH! Didn't you know that RR was in the line but unfortunately it doesnt happen...... It would be interesting to see how RR fare on an MD-11? Again, There was debates regarding to the drag problems as DavidH pointed out....... Why wasnt you partipcated in that debate?

Name-changing coward? Huh?

Nothing will ever change nor convenice me that 777 burn less fuel than the MD-11 unless proven. I done lot of research and unable to find reliable answer to that. I remain unconvenice. Too vaguely on that one.

I do not personally believe that 9/11 is a sole blame for screw up the air industries. There was some incidents before to that date. It is Airliner(s)' responsibility to correct the safety to prevent such 9/11 incidents or similars. That is full of baloney. Look TSA etc etc etc have drove the air-customers away! No flying lists etc etc etc....... Government is controlling the regulation and airliners are doomed....... That is airliners' consquences for failing their responsibilities! That would have been prevented if airliners focus on safety instead paying worthless CEO that millions of money.
IMO. GodDamn, Look at ELAL!!!!!! An easy terrorist target for so many decade than any of airliners!!!! ELAL made their efforts and responsibilities to ensure that people flys safe. Why can't the US airliners? "Because nothing-big ever happen UNTIL it happens!" is within our attitude-motto?

About the 747, Ask yourself question with a seat of 400. Do it always fill every flights? No. Around 25-50% or more seats empty! 777 is a great number to offset the unnecessarily wastefulness...... 747 is no longer needed in domestic (US) flights that is because of many-schedule flight timetable among the competitors unlike it was in 70's. Japan domestic do warrant for a 747D as I have seen myself. Tokyo-Osako, A short haul flight, ALL SEATS FULL! For a 747 v.s. 777 and I would chose a 777 over 747. For a MD-11 vs 777 I chose MD-11. For the very same reason as explained above. As apparently AA, UA, and DL are using 777 internationally and rare in domestic. Suppose if SWA get "737LR" stuffs..... I would not be surprise that UA and AA will have to dump their 777 and get 737LR to compete. Boeing is currently working on 787. That would be interesting whether 777 will be around in the assemble line for another 10? 20? years after 787 especially with fuel cost. Maybe Asia's demand would be the one that still need 777.

You are so screw up with air frame numbers. After Boeing took over the McD there was so many on Options from airliners for more MD-11 and Boeing have conveniced them to opt for 764/777 because of bullsiit-safety reasons that arose among Boeing officers. (Swissair incident as example) Didn't you know that DL had 31 in options? Lufthanasa want more but Boeing prevented them from further buying. Finnair, now, want more MD-11 they regretted for not getting more. Now the tanker deal. Should I contiune?

Look at what Boeing is regretting now!?!? (I provided the source above.)

Regardless the demand, Boeing SHOULD NOT have shut down the assemble line of an MD-11 for reasons. Business,liability-bullschits, costs etc etc etc was the reasons..... Ok, Say Good Bye that tanker deal!!!! Going Airbus! See the point. If Boeing have some faith by modifying the MD-11 by correcting or modernization the wring system.... Here the sweet deal with USAF now, Allready! Even Finnair eagerly open a fat wallet for new MD-11 so would Lufthanasa. USE YOUR BRAIN! I friggling can not believe that your defending a Boeing for killing a MD-11 that Boeing allready losing BILLLLLLLIONS of dollars. Airbus is now smiling and smoking JAG's style cigar.

As soon if A-332 tanker deal should complete, Should we debate the # of airframe of 777 vs A-332?


You get all so screw up..... No, I do not blame 777 for bankruptcy UA and AA. I fired back as you stated AA and DL dumped their MD-11 for ecomonic reasons. If it is ecomonic reason then 777 would roam 3/4 % fleets around the world. Why am I seeing "How great A332/333 is than 777 and in the opposite?" Again, I am not conveinced by your comments. You happen to be a Pro-Boeing. That is Understandable......

Oh I forget..... Prejudice is within our society's attitude, What a typically.

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sammyk

Three actually! Last one is yet to enter service (might have by now) I believe but it has been painted and named.

Travis Campbell

When it comes down to whether or not the MD-11 would make a good Air Force Tanker for what they are looking for, the answer is no. The current Air Force Jet Tanker fleet consists of KC-135's and KC-10's. The Air Force was/is looking for a replacement for the far older KC-135's. The KC-767 is the a far more logical choice in that it is closer to the KC-135 in size than your proposed KC-11 (which is larger than the KC-10). The only advantage of having a KC-11 is the fact it'd be a tri-jet, but that still doesn't help with the fact that it is way bigger than what is necessary. Now, I like the MD-11, but like the 747, it is a dated design. McDonnell/Douglas failed with the MD-11 because, it had older technology still incorporated and at the time it hit the market, new twin jets were at the capabilities it was at and, upcomming designs were far exceeding it. There will come a time in the future, when twin jets will even replace 4 engine jets, Airbus is already starting to lean more towards the A350 and away from the A340 for this exact reason.

__________________
Now that I have my damn Air New Zealand DC-10-30; Where's my damn Air New Zealand 737-300 (N/C), DC-8-52 (Kuru and Star Liveries), DC-8-54F and 787!?!
Private Pilot as of 19 MAR 04.
Instrument Rated as of 06 AUG 04.
Commercial Pilot as of 29 MAR 05.
Multi-Engine Rated as of 28 MAY 05.
Advanced Ground Instructor as of 10 MAR 06

L-1011-Heavy

The Third One Was Not A UA Reg #, So I assumed Acquired Elsewhere?
I Remember Posting All Three Pics On 400SH.

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The Heavy Armada
"In The Absence Of Excellence, There Is Only Mediocrity."