TriStar dangers

N742PR · 03-02-2004, 05:17 AM

The Lockheed L-1011 TriStar was one of the most prestigious planes ever built. It was the most technologically-advanced plane in the first generation of widebodies. However, being technologically-advanced is one of the reasons why TriStar is one of the most dangerous planes. For example, a Saudia TriStar landed burning. The crew can't open the doors because the computer wires to open doors was burnt and the rest of the crew and passengers were being barbecued inside the plane. The airport rescuers were helpless until... BOOM! The plane exploded killing all onboard. Another one is an article I read on Airways Nov/Dec 1997 issue concerning its flaps and engines. Are there other problems concerning the TriStar? If so, why are these problems keep on haunting TriStars?

JM

Scott · 03-02-2004, 05:46 AM

No wonder they call it the "Tritanic"!
OTOH, the DC-10 is known as the "death cruiser"!

justin · 03-02-2004, 06:30 AM

I don't know, you get these stories about most airliners, and at the end of the day the Tristar safety record isn't that bad. I think the ultimate answer is that despite what many want to believe, no system is totally reliable 100% of the time and a design has to be a compromise to be viable, hence it is always possible to zoom in on danger areas, but you either weigh up a balance of probabilities and decide the statistical chance of a disaster is acceptable or you stay at home,

Justin

richie154 · 03-02-2004, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott
No wonder they call it the "Tritanic"!
OTOH, the DC-10 is known as the "death cruiser"!

I think the DC-10 was the worse of the two, when compared to the L-1011. It definately had some design flaws. The Saudia L-1011 incident was the only one I could think of that was a pure mechinical failure. Other L-1011 incidents, like the Eastern L-1011 in Flordia and the Delta L-1011 crash at DFW were due to pilot error or wx phenomina. DC-10s had a lot more issues. The two following crashes are the most glaring errors:

-American 191: #1 engine came off during ORD departure ripping out left side hydraulic lines, left wing stalls after departure, plane rolls uncontrolled and crashes. 202 dead plus numerous on ground. Improper maintainence procedure, McDD never stated how the engine and pylon should be removed; instead airlines removed the whole assembly as one.

-Turkish 981: Improperly secured aft cargo door blows out at FL130, floor collapses, control cables severed. 346 dead. Cargo door could be jammed shut but not be secured due to design.

ZX1100F1 · 03-02-2004, 01:32 PM

The people onboard the Saudia L-1011 died because the flight crew made several errors not because “the computer wires to open doors was burnt”.

Mistake #1: The flight crew did not use proper emergency (in-flight fire) procedures as they did not fully realize the severity of the situation.

Mistake #2: The flight crew did not don their O2 masks.

Mistake #3: The pilots informed the cabin crew “not to evacuate the aircraft when they landed” so the flight attendants made no preperation for an emergency evac.

Mistake #4: The flight crew failed to initiate a minimum stop landing and shut down for an immediate emergency cabin evacuation; they just continued to taxi down the runway and onto a taxi way, the engines were running for 6 minutes after touchdown.

Mistake #5: This is the “Biggie”, the pilots did not reset the Auto Cabin Pressure Controller for the return back to Riyadh which is at 2,100 ft elevation, the setting was left incorrectly (at -200ft) for the destination (Jeddah) which is at sea level.
The result was a pressurized cabin on landing that prevented any of the doors from being opened for several minutes after the time the engines were shutdown, in the mean time the passengers died from toxic smoke inhalation and heat. Once the cabin depressurized the rescue team was able to open the doors (from the outside).

Fact: This statement is incorrect: “BOOM! The plane exploded killing all onboard” The L-1011 did not explode, it simply became fully engulfed in fire a few minutes after the doors were opened, the passengers and crew had been dead for roughly 10+ minutes prior to the doors being opened.

Fact: The main doors on an L-1011 can be opened both electrically and manually, the emergency exits are opened manually provided the cabin is not pressurized.

Fact: The pilots screwed the pooch.

Fact: The technologically advanced (for its time) L-1011 has the lowest accident rate of any passenger carrying jet airliner that was introduced in the 70's or earlier.

Fact: You were over 3 times more likely to be involved in a DC-10 accident than in the L-1011 and nearly 6 times more likely to be in an MD-11 accident.

I think that I may have missed your point somewhere.

N742PR · 03-03-2004, 04:41 AM

So it means that the Saudia disaster was pure human error. Sorry for the story because this was told me years ago. The DC-10 had indeed problems with their cargo doors and hydraulics just like what happened to the UA DC-10 crash in Sioux City. On that same issue of Airways where I read the article about the L1011, the DC-10 and MD-11 was discussed in the Mailbag section were readers sent their concerns about the DC-10. I think both trijets have wiring problems. The DC-10 in hydraulic wirings and the L1011 reagrding the APU and flaps. The flaps auto-retract but the plane isn't supposed to do it. The RB-211 engines stalled. The fire extinguishers automatically extinguishes. I think this problems with wideody trijets are normal. But why do you think these problems plague them?

JM

richie154 · 03-03-2004, 04:54 AM

UA 232 wasn't really a design error, the fan disk had cracks in it. Its more of a preventative maintainence/manufacturing issue combined with pure bad luck. It is amazing that UA 232 actually crashed landed at an airport; really, none of the people onboard should have survived but over 1/2 did.

Starliner · 03-03-2004, 04:01 PM

Unfortunately the DC-10 met the same fate as the Lockheed Electra (188), death by media. Leave it to the media, who always seem to know the cause of a transportation disaster within moments of it happening, to terrify the public and scare them away from 2 otherwise solid and dependable airframes.

DavidMich · 04-06-2004, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZX1100F1
The people onboard the Saudia L-1011 died because the flight crew made several errors not because ?the computer wires to open doors was burnt?.

Mistake #1: The flight crew did not use proper emergency (in-flight fire) procedures as they did not fully realize the severity of the situation.

Mistake #2: The flight crew did not don their O2 masks.

Mistake #3: The pilots informed the cabin crew ?not to evacuate the aircraft when they landed? so the flight attendants made no preperation for an emergency evac.

Mistake #4: The flight crew failed to initiate a minimum stop landing and shut down for an immediate emergency cabin evacuation; they just continued to taxi down the runway and onto a taxi way, the engines were running for 6 minutes after touchdown.

Mistake #5: This is the ?Biggie?, the pilots did not reset the Auto Cabin Pressure Controller for the return back to Riyadh which is at 2,100 ft elevation, the setting was left incorrectly (at -200ft) for the destination (Jeddah) which is at sea level.
The result was a pressurized cabin on landing that prevented any of the doors from being opened for several minutes after the time the engines were shutdown, in the mean time the passengers died from toxic smoke inhalation and heat. Once the cabin depressurized the rescue team was able to open the doors (from the outside).

Fact: This statement is incorrect: ?BOOM! The plane exploded killing all onboard? The L-1011 did not explode, it simply became fully engulfed in fire a few minutes after the doors were opened, the passengers and crew had been dead for roughly 10+ minutes prior to the doors being opened.

Fact: The main doors on an L-1011 can be opened both electrically and manually, the emergency exits are opened manually provided the cabin is not pressurized.

Fact: The pilots screwed the pooch.

Fact: The technologically advanced (for its time) L-1011 has the lowest accident rate of any passenger carrying jet airliner that was introduced in the 70's or earlier.

Fact: You were over 3 times more likely to be involved in a DC-10 accident than in the L-1011 and nearly 6 times more likely to be in an MD-11 accident.

I think that I may have missed your point somewhere.

Well said Dave. I was all set to go off on a rant here, but you did it so nice!

03-03-2004, 04:41 AM	#6
N742PR Junior Collector Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pasig City,Philippines Age: 19 Posts: 44	So it means that the Saudia disaster was pure human error. Sorry for the story because this was told me years ago. The DC-10 had indeed problems with their cargo doors and hydraulics just like what happened to the UA DC-10 crash in Sioux City. On that same issue of Airways where I read the article about the L1011, the DC-10 and MD-11 was discussed in the Mailbag section were readers sent their concerns about the DC-10. I think both trijets have wiring problems. The DC-10 in hydraulic wirings and the L1011 reagrding the APU and flaps. The flaps auto-retract but the plane isn't supposed to do it. The RB-211 engines stalled. The fire extinguishers automatically extinguishes. I think this problems with wideody trijets are normal. But why do you think these problems plague them? JM __________________ I Too, Will Never Forget My Shorts...... Shorts 330 & 360

03-03-2004, 04:54 AM	#7
richie154 Retired Hookah Master Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Valley of Heart's Delight Age: 24 Posts: 3,718	UA 232 wasn't really a design error, the fan disk had cracks in it. Its more of a preventative maintainence/manufacturing issue combined with pure bad luck. It is amazing that UA 232 actually crashed landed at an airport; really, none of the people onboard should have survived but over 1/2 did. __________________ The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villian with a smiling cheek, a goodly apple rotten at the heart. Oh, what a goodly outside falsehood hath! Private Pilot: 10/20/2005 Private Multi Engine: 05/09/2008 The more things change, the more Mesa still sucks.

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03-02-2004, 05:17 AM	#1
N742PR Junior Collector Join Date: May 2002 Location: Pasig City,Philippines Age: 19 Posts: 44	TriStar dangers The Lockheed L-1011 TriStar was one of the most prestigious planes ever built. It was the most technologically-advanced plane in the first generation of widebodies. However, being technologically-advanced is one of the reasons why TriStar is one of the most dangerous planes. For example, a Saudia TriStar landed burning. The crew can't open the doors because the computer wires to open doors was burnt and the rest of the crew and passengers were being barbecued inside the plane. The airport rescuers were helpless until... BOOM! The plane exploded killing all onboard. Another one is an article I read on Airways Nov/Dec 1997 issue concerning its flaps and engines. Are there other problems concerning the TriStar? If so, why are these problems keep on haunting TriStars? JM __________________ I Too, Will Never Forget My Shorts...... Shorts 330 & 360

03-02-2004, 05:46 AM	#2
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	No wonder they call it the "Tritanic"! OTOH, the DC-10 is known as the "death cruiser"! __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

03-02-2004, 06:30 AM	#3
justin Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,005	I don't know, you get these stories about most airliners, and at the end of the day the Tristar safety record isn't that bad. I think the ultimate answer is that despite what many want to believe, no system is totally reliable 100% of the time and a design has to be a compromise to be viable, hence it is always possible to zoom in on danger areas, but you either weigh up a balance of probabilities and decide the statistical chance of a disaster is acceptable or you stay at home, Justin

03-02-2004, 01:32 PM	#5
ZX1100F1 Buford T. Justice Join Date: Sep 1999 Posts: 2,004	How wrong can you be? The people onboard the Saudia L-1011 died because the flight crew made several errors not because “the computer wires to open doors was burnt”. Mistake #1: The flight crew did not use proper emergency (in-flight fire) procedures as they did not fully realize the severity of the situation. Mistake #2: The flight crew did not don their O2 masks. Mistake #3: The pilots informed the cabin crew “not to evacuate the aircraft when they landed” so the flight attendants made no preperation for an emergency evac. Mistake #4: The flight crew failed to initiate a minimum stop landing and shut down for an immediate emergency cabin evacuation; they just continued to taxi down the runway and onto a taxi way, the engines were running for 6 minutes after touchdown. Mistake #5: This is the “Biggie”, the pilots did not reset the Auto Cabin Pressure Controller for the return back to Riyadh which is at 2,100 ft elevation, the setting was left incorrectly (at -200ft) for the destination (Jeddah) which is at sea level. The result was a pressurized cabin on landing that prevented any of the doors from being opened for several minutes after the time the engines were shutdown, in the mean time the passengers died from toxic smoke inhalation and heat. Once the cabin depressurized the rescue team was able to open the doors (from the outside). Fact: This statement is incorrect: “BOOM! The plane exploded killing all onboard” The L-1011 did not explode, it simply became fully engulfed in fire a few minutes after the doors were opened, the passengers and crew had been dead for roughly 10+ minutes prior to the doors being opened. Fact: The main doors on an L-1011 can be opened both electrically and manually, the emergency exits are opened manually provided the cabin is not pressurized. Fact: The pilots screwed the pooch. Fact: The technologically advanced (for its time) L-1011 has the lowest accident rate of any passenger carrying jet airliner that was introduced in the 70's or earlier. Fact: You were over 3 times more likely to be involved in a DC-10 accident than in the L-1011 and nearly 6 times more likely to be in an MD-11 accident. I think that I may have missed your point somewhere. Last edited by ZX1100F1; 03-02-2004 at 05:14 PM.

03-03-2004, 04:01 PM	#8
Starliner Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Norman OK USA Posts: 452	Unfortunately the DC-10 met the same fate as the Lockheed Electra (188), death by media. Leave it to the media, who always seem to know the cause of a transportation disaster within moments of it happening, to terrify the public and scare them away from 2 otherwise solid and dependable airframes.