Northwest Airlines

boiler0178 · 06-12-2003, 12:52 AM

I just saw this picture of the new Northwest A330

....and I'm a little disappointed.

The new color scheme is very 21st century and different, so I like it from that standpoint, but does anybody else feel a little defensive of the current scheme? What I'm getting at as far as the color scheme goes is that I love the old red tail and blue stripe on bare metal of the 70s and 80s, but it had seen its day and the red plane/black stripe/white belly colors were an excellent choice to move forward with. It's vibrant and professional while still being different and on the cutting edge even now in 2003, 12 or so years after rolling it out. It's just disappointing to see something change that made sense. Delta made similar move with the 97 colors to the Deltaflot scheme, as it's refered to.

United Airlines on the other hand needs something new to mix things up. Unfortunately, for me, and many others the image of that gray 767 with the blue belly slamming into the WTC is burned into the back of my head along with the two year slide this industry has been in with United being the most prominent airline to suffer. For their sake at the press conference this fall or next winter when they announce the exiting of Chapter 11, they should unveil plans for a face lift to change how the world sees United Airlines.

Back to Northwest, could anyone answer a question for me? Why the A330 to replace the DC-10? I feel like they're replacing a legendary aircraft, with something that doesn't exactly scream elegance. And referring to above, the new colors (or lack there of) do not exactly help this bird win me over. True the newer aircraft is more efficient and so on, but why not the 777-200? Or the 767-400? Both classy aircraft no matter what colors they're in (even make Deltaflot look outstanding), extremely efficient, range, pax capacity similar and, to me, it makes a statement to the world. To others maybe the A330 did make a statement, but between the colors and the aircraft choice Northwest has me puzzled. Why is it almost every airline in the world has picked up on the usefulness of the 777 except NWA, and US Airways? The 777 can be as versatile as DTW to MCO or MEM to LHR. Other airlines like American, Delta, United are showing it works. OR did it just come down to price per plane? It would surprise me if Boeing let NWA slip through their hands again after losing the 737 deal when NWA went for A320s, and then having them at the table to actually buy 15 or so 757-300s, but then not sealing a deal for some sort of versatile wide body.

Please weigh in on this topic, I'm interested to hear both an enthusiast's reaction as well as the flying public.

tech77jp · 06-12-2003, 09:20 AM

I completely agree. I think that, regardless of cost-saving measures, the old scheme was much better (even if it was painted on the A330).

I'm sure Northwest had its reasons for choosing the A330. However, just the same, I wish it had gone for the 777-200 or the 767-400 (even better!).

06-12-2003, 11:25 AM

Northwest may have chosen the A330 over the 777 or 767-400 because Airbus offered them a better deal. Plus, the A330s to be delivered will be the -300 and -200 variants, giving them flexibility to use them in different markets with different capacity requirements with just one aircraft type, which saves on pilot and mechanic training.

As for the 767-400, both Continental and Delta are unhappy with its performance, so the A330 may have been a better choice for NW.

It would be nice for UA to have a livery change, but I think they have far more pressing concerns right now, such as actually getting a solid restructuring plan in place. Other than labor concessions, grounding the 747-400s and some 777-200s, and the proposed Starfish low-cost project, they haven't come up with anything of substance. United doesn't have the cash to change its paint scheme. I was under the impression they wanted the gray and navy livery to reflect a business-like image.

george · 06-12-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NYCAAer

As for the 767-400, both Continental and Delta are unhappy with its performance, so the A330 may have been a better choice for NW.

First time I hear (read) that. Further research is in order on this... I think!

06-12-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by george
First time I hear (read) that. Further research is in order on this... I think!

George, I actually read that here in the commercial aviation section of this forum. I don't know the specifics.

boiler0178 · 06-12-2003, 02:26 PM

I understand UAL's problems and how drastic they are, but every airlpane still needs a D-Check, and a repaint every 4-5 years so why not make it a different color that is a little bit brighter. The gray and blue business image looked good in the 90s and worked due to the "power tie image" of that era, but they need to be showing the public they are a different company than they used to be and they need to show that they differ from the stereotypical "Big 3" airline mold they made in the late 90s, including bad service, labor wars, and long delays that has helped drive them into bankcruptcy. I look at their current colors and think of alot of things including, bad service, labor wars, long delays, September 11th, only because that image was pasted all over the news for months and years regarding those issues. I think it would be a simple task to show an image change, and that they are a brand new, better airline.

As far as the 767-400 thought I read that COA was happy with theirs and actually placed an order for like 15 more. And I read on Aviation Week.com, that the 764 was the second most efficient airliner out there outside of the 777. Anybody else hear any negativity towards the 764?

Another thing about the choice of A330 from NWA, as far as training and MX costs, is that they operate so many 757s, both -200 and -300, that they still didn't pick the 764, and it's so suprising because pilots that are rated for one are rated for the other, and parts are interchangable too in a lot of cases of both a/c and maintenance training. And I beleive it was around January of 2001 when they made their order for the A330 and at that time, from what I had heard Delta and COA were very high on their 764s.

At this point I guess nothing would suprise me, but would certainly be interesting to see what they were thinking.

Chansen · 06-12-2003, 03:24 PM

Northwest planned getting the A330's years ago with A340's. These were put on hold for some reason for which I have no clue. Reminds me of UAL, Continental and American holding off to get the 757-200. For Northwest's A330 it was early 90's I recall seeing renderings with bowling shoe colors.

BHopper88 · 06-12-2003, 03:54 PM

craig is correct,

NWA had the a340s and the a330s on order right before NW almost got into bankruptcy in the early 90s

NW put both aircraft on HOLD and then later decided to cancel/convert the a340s to a330s to the hold list in the mid 90s and then decided to then have the delivery date for the aircraft to replace the dc10s and 747-200s around 97 or so...

Yukon 880 · 06-12-2003, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NYCAAer
Northwest may have chosen the A330 over the 777 or 767-400 because Airbus offered them a better deal.

Kevin,

I feel fairly confident that you have hit the nail basically on the head on this one. Factor into the equation that the A330/A340 order was an either/or option from the very beginning, and the overall downturn in the industry over the last several years, and the A330 makes sense.

In seeking to replace the DC-10, Northwest wanted the stretch 757 for the domestic heavy traffic and the A330 for the trans-Atlantic replacement. This will be the first ETOPS experience for Northwest. It will be interesting to see how the aircraft "fits" into the NWA fleet as time goes on.

From a strictly aesthetic point of view, it doesn't look much like a 777 does it? Sort of like the new paint, you either like the way it looks or you don't.

Don

Chansen · 06-12-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yukon 880
Kevin,

In seeking to replace the DC-10, Northwest wanted the stretch 757 for the domestic heavy traffic and the A330 for the trans-Atlantic replacement. This will be the first ETOPS experience for Northwest. It will be interesting to see how the aircraft "fits" into the NWA fleet as time goes on.

Don

Northwest also as of late has been using 752 ETOPS aircraft Trans-Atlantic I thought I read awhile back. Could be wrong!

BHopper88 · 06-12-2003, 06:07 PM

havent heard that NW was using ETOPS 757-200s on the atlantic routes since the dc10s are still on the routes... especially out of detroit to CDG, LGW, AMS, FRA...

again i could be wrong but i think all the 752 have just flown domesticly unlike continental which uses its 752 to go to glasgow from EWR.

Yukon 880 · 06-12-2003, 06:12 PM

There are 15 757-251's in the NWA fleet that have partial ETOPS provisions but the A330 will be the first aircraft in the fleet to conduct regular ETOPS.

Chansen · 06-12-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yukon 880
There are 15 757-251's in the NWA fleet that have partial ETOPS provisions but the A330 will be the first aircraft in the fleet to conduct regular ETOPS.

Thanks for the correct info! I was being mislead when I thought thats what I read.

06-13-2003, 12:09 AM

Doesn't Continental also fly the 752 on CLE-LGW? British Airways also used to fly 752s from JFK to Birmingham, England, and for a brief period, American flew the 757-200 on JFK to Manchester. Yuck! That's too cramped a cabin for transatlantic. I refused to work JFK-MAN on the 757. Luckily I had enough seniority so I didn't have to.

Yukon 880 · 06-13-2003, 05:21 PM

Kevin,

I am not totally certain of the particulars but I believe that a number of the Rolls-powered 757-200's at CO are ETOPS certified and I would not doubt that some of the AA birds may be as well.

I suspect Icelandair is in that mix too, by the nature of their overwater routes.

Tell you what though, unless I am seated in the first 6 or 7 rows or on the flight deck, I don't want to have any part of that narrow-body long haul!

Glad you did not have to work that trip, it can't be a whole lot of fun for the crew either.

Don

06-12-2003, 12:52 AM	#1
boiler0178 Senior Collector Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: LaSalle, IL Age: 30 Posts: 209	Northwest Airlines I just saw this picture of the new Northwest A330 ....and I'm a little disappointed. The new color scheme is very 21st century and different, so I like it from that standpoint, but does anybody else feel a little defensive of the current scheme? What I'm getting at as far as the color scheme goes is that I love the old red tail and blue stripe on bare metal of the 70s and 80s, but it had seen its day and the red plane/black stripe/white belly colors were an excellent choice to move forward with. It's vibrant and professional while still being different and on the cutting edge even now in 2003, 12 or so years after rolling it out. It's just disappointing to see something change that made sense. Delta made similar move with the 97 colors to the Deltaflot scheme, as it's refered to. United Airlines on the other hand needs something new to mix things up. Unfortunately, for me, and many others the image of that gray 767 with the blue belly slamming into the WTC is burned into the back of my head along with the two year slide this industry has been in with United being the most prominent airline to suffer. For their sake at the press conference this fall or next winter when they announce the exiting of Chapter 11, they should unveil plans for a face lift to change how the world sees United Airlines. Back to Northwest, could anyone answer a question for me? Why the A330 to replace the DC-10? I feel like they're replacing a legendary aircraft, with something that doesn't exactly scream elegance. And referring to above, the new colors (or lack there of) do not exactly help this bird win me over. True the newer aircraft is more efficient and so on, but why not the 777-200? Or the 767-400? Both classy aircraft no matter what colors they're in (even make Deltaflot look outstanding), extremely efficient, range, pax capacity similar and, to me, it makes a statement to the world. To others maybe the A330 did make a statement, but between the colors and the aircraft choice Northwest has me puzzled. Why is it almost every airline in the world has picked up on the usefulness of the 777 except NWA, and US Airways? The 777 can be as versatile as DTW to MCO or MEM to LHR. Other airlines like American, Delta, United are showing it works. OR did it just come down to price per plane? It would surprise me if Boeing let NWA slip through their hands again after losing the 737 deal when NWA went for A320s, and then having them at the table to actually buy 15 or so 757-300s, but then not sealing a deal for some sort of versatile wide body. Please weigh in on this topic, I'm interested to hear both an enthusiast's reaction as well as the flying public. Last edited by boiler0178; 06-12-2003 at 12:54 AM.

06-12-2003, 09:20 AM	#2
tech77jp Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 435	I completely agree. I think that, regardless of cost-saving measures, the old scheme was much better (even if it was painted on the A330). I'm sure Northwest had its reasons for choosing the A330. However, just the same, I wish it had gone for the 777-200 or the 767-400 (even better!). __________________ "Everything good in life is either illegal, immoral, or fattening." - Murphy http://www.soaringcapture.tk/

06-12-2003, 06:12 PM	#12
Yukon 880 Clipper Speedy Kitty Join Date: May 2003 Location: Anchorage, The Great State of Alaska Posts: 773	Negative ETOPS... There are 15 757-251's in the NWA fleet that have partial ETOPS provisions but the A330 will be the first aircraft in the fleet to conduct regular ETOPS. __________________ Fly Delta's Big Jets!

06-13-2003, 05:21 PM	#15
Yukon 880 Clipper Speedy Kitty Join Date: May 2003 Location: Anchorage, The Great State of Alaska Posts: 773	That's a long haul... Kevin, I am not totally certain of the particulars but I believe that a number of the Rolls-powered 757-200's at CO are ETOPS certified and I would not doubt that some of the AA birds may be as well. I suspect Icelandair is in that mix too, by the nature of their overwater routes. Tell you what though, unless I am seated in the first 6 or 7 rows or on the flight deck, I don't want to have any part of that narrow-body long haul! Glad you did not have to work that trip, it can't be a whole lot of fun for the crew either. Don __________________ Fly Delta's Big Jets!

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06-12-2003, 11:25 AM	#3
NYCAAer Guest Posts: n/a	Northwest may have chosen the A330 over the 777 or 767-400 because Airbus offered them a better deal. Plus, the A330s to be delivered will be the -300 and -200 variants, giving them flexibility to use them in different markets with different capacity requirements with just one aircraft type, which saves on pilot and mechanic training. As for the 767-400, both Continental and Delta are unhappy with its performance, so the A330 may have been a better choice for NW. It would be nice for UA to have a livery change, but I think they have far more pressing concerns right now, such as actually getting a solid restructuring plan in place. Other than labor concessions, grounding the 747-400s and some 777-200s, and the proposed Starfish low-cost project, they haven't come up with anything of substance. United doesn't have the cash to change its paint scheme. I was under the impression they wanted the gray and navy livery to reflect a business-like image.

06-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#6
boiler0178 Senior Collector Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: LaSalle, IL Age: 30 Posts: 209	I understand UAL's problems and how drastic they are, but every airlpane still needs a D-Check, and a repaint every 4-5 years so why not make it a different color that is a little bit brighter. The gray and blue business image looked good in the 90s and worked due to the "power tie image" of that era, but they need to be showing the public they are a different company than they used to be and they need to show that they differ from the stereotypical "Big 3" airline mold they made in the late 90s, including bad service, labor wars, and long delays that has helped drive them into bankcruptcy. I look at their current colors and think of alot of things including, bad service, labor wars, long delays, September 11th, only because that image was pasted all over the news for months and years regarding those issues. I think it would be a simple task to show an image change, and that they are a brand new, better airline. As far as the 767-400 thought I read that COA was happy with theirs and actually placed an order for like 15 more. And I read on Aviation Week.com, that the 764 was the second most efficient airliner out there outside of the 777. Anybody else hear any negativity towards the 764? Another thing about the choice of A330 from NWA, as far as training and MX costs, is that they operate so many 757s, both -200 and -300, that they still didn't pick the 764, and it's so suprising because pilots that are rated for one are rated for the other, and parts are interchangable too in a lot of cases of both a/c and maintenance training. And I beleive it was around January of 2001 when they made their order for the A330 and at that time, from what I had heard Delta and COA were very high on their 764s. At this point I guess nothing would suprise me, but would certainly be interesting to see what they were thinking.

06-12-2003, 03:24 PM	#7
Chansen Complete Wacko! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 3,041	Northwest planned getting the A330's years ago with A340's. These were put on hold for some reason for which I have no clue. Reminds me of UAL, Continental and American holding off to get the 757-200. For Northwest's A330 it was early 90's I recall seeing renderings with bowling shoe colors.

06-12-2003, 03:54 PM	#8
BHopper88 Master Collector Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Home: Beverly Hills, Michigan (burb of Detroit), School: Grand Forks, North Dakota Age: 30 Posts: 547	craig is correct, NWA had the a340s and the a330s on order right before NW almost got into bankruptcy in the early 90s NW put both aircraft on HOLD and then later decided to cancel/convert the a340s to a330s to the hold list in the mid 90s and then decided to then have the delivery date for the aircraft to replace the dc10s and 747-200s around 97 or so...

06-12-2003, 06:07 PM	#11
BHopper88 Master Collector Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Home: Beverly Hills, Michigan (burb of Detroit), School: Grand Forks, North Dakota Age: 30 Posts: 547	havent heard that NW was using ETOPS 757-200s on the atlantic routes since the dc10s are still on the routes... especially out of detroit to CDG, LGW, AMS, FRA... again i could be wrong but i think all the 752 have just flown domesticly unlike continental which uses its 752 to go to glasgow from EWR.

06-13-2003, 12:09 AM	#14
NYCAAer Guest Posts: n/a	Doesn't Continental also fly the 752 on CLE-LGW? British Airways also used to fly 752s from JFK to Birmingham, England, and for a brief period, American flew the 757-200 on JFK to Manchester. Yuck! That's too cramped a cabin for transatlantic. I refused to work JFK-MAN on the 757. Luckily I had enough seniority so I didn't have to.