Emergency exit seat allocation??

justin · 04-06-2002, 07:08 AM

Does anybody in the industry know if their is a legal requirement to allocate exit seats to physically fit people? I've noticed a couple of times over the years that these seats can be occupied by very elderly or disabled people, who quite clearly would never be able to open the door in an emergency and would probably block the escape route. Just interested if there is a requirement or if it's something that gets no thought.

Justin

Clip · 04-06-2002, 04:02 PM

If you sit in an exit row, you must be able to perform the duties required during an emergency. This is a federal law. Specifically:

(b) No certificate holder may seat a person in a seat affected by this section if the certificate holder determines that it is likely that the person would be unable to perform one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section because --

(1) The person lacks sufficient mobility, strength, or dexterity in both arms and hands, and both legs:

(i) To reach upward, sideways, and downward to the location of emergency exit and exit-slide operating mechanisms;

(ii) To grasp and push, pull, turn, or otherwise manipulate those mechanisms;

(iii) To push, shove, pull, or otherwise open emergency exits;

(iv) To lift out, hold, deposit on nearby seats, or maneuver over the seatbacks to the next row objects the size and weight of over-wing window exit doors;

(v) To remove obstructions similar in size and weight to over-wing exit doors;

(vi) To reach the emergency exit expeditiously;

(vii) To maintain balance while removing obstructions;

(viii) To exit expeditiously;

(ix) To stabilize an escape slide after deployment; or

(x) To assist others in getting off an escape slide;

(2) The person is less than 15 years of age or lacks the capacity to perform one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section without the assistance of an adult companion, parent, or other relative;

(3) The person lacks the ability to read and understand instructions required by this section and related to emergency evacuation provided by the certificate holder in printed or graphic form or the ability to understand oral crew commands.

(4) The person lacks sufficient visual capacity to perform one or more of the applicable functions in paragraph (d) of this section without the assistance of visual aids beyond contact lenses or eyeglasses;

(5) The person lacks sufficient aural capacity to hear and understand instructions shouted by flight attendants, without assistance beyond a hearing aid;

(6) The person lacks the ability adequately to impart information orally to other passengers; or,

(7) The person has:

(i) A condition or responsibilities, such as caring for small children, that might prevent the person from performing one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section; or

(ii) A condition that might cause the person harm if he or she performs one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section.

Scott · 04-06-2002, 04:47 PM

Well researched, Gabby! Most airlines brief passengers of their added responsibilities and will reseat customers unable or unwilling to comply.

justin · 04-06-2002, 05:20 PM

Thanx for the info!!

So it would appear that when I see disabled or very old people in those seats somebody has made an oversight.

Justin

Clip · 04-06-2002, 06:45 PM

Justin,

That all depends. Could these passengers have been seated in the BULKHEAD, and not strictly an emergency row? In some aircraft, depending on the configuration, the bulkhead and the exit row are the same. However, in many aircraft the bulkhead is NOT an emergency row and elderly and disabled people are seated there purposely.

In most instances, the bulkhead is blocked out and cannot be requested. Many airlines will give these seats to elderly and disabled people, or passengers traveling with kids, for ease and comfort.

I'm also curious about how you define elderly and disabled. It has been my experience that airlines enforce the exit row requirement very proactively. They have to -- or face a fine for violating an FAR. I'm interested in knowing more about your particular experience.

DeltaFlot · 04-06-2002, 10:55 PM

I have to agree with Justinon this one, i have seen little old ladies, and old men that look like that couldn't lift themselves let alone an emergency door placed in Emergency row seats. Next Time, I am going to make a fuss.

Clip · 04-06-2002, 10:58 PM

I'm not disagreeing with Justin at all. I just want a little bit more info and was thinking he was confusing bulkhead seating with exit row seating. That's all.

Scott · 04-06-2002, 11:19 PM

I notice that Justin lives in the UK. Could it be that the FAA equivalent in the UK and European countries (note I did not say "UK and OTHER European countries)

have different regs?

Clip · 04-07-2002, 12:04 AM

Good point, Scott. I would think they would be similar, but I honestly don't know.

justin · 04-07-2002, 05:57 AM

Hi Clip and others, I was talking about the overwing escape hatches. Those doors are surprisingly heavy, and I'd guess many people would be surprised if they had to open them. I fly a lot in Asia and the mid East, and it is in the mid East I've mainly seen this, although I'll be honest and say I've seen it once in a KLM 737-800 once too on a Athens - Amsterdam flight. If elderly people are still physically fit I see no real problem, but when they are very obviously infirm and need a f/a to help them down the aisle I find it worrying. To be honest, having flown so much in the mid East, my view is that if their is a hard landing you may as well just accept you're going to die, I hope this does not sound arrogant in any way but their is no way a 100 or more Egyptian's or whatever would be evacuated as they'd just l make a run together and jam the plane up, and the ones not fighting to get into the aisles would be standing up trying to get their stuff out of lockers and stuff. Like I say, I know this sounds terrible, but I demand a seat next to a door so I can get out as I just don't feel safe in a centre seat over there.

Justin

04-06-2002, 07:08 AM	#1
justin Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,005	Emergency exit seat allocation?? Does anybody in the industry know if their is a legal requirement to allocate exit seats to physically fit people? I've noticed a couple of times over the years that these seats can be occupied by very elderly or disabled people, who quite clearly would never be able to open the door in an emergency and would probably block the escape route. Just interested if there is a requirement or if it's something that gets no thought. Justin

04-06-2002, 04:02 PM	#2
Clip Model Goddess Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 37 Posts: 1,313	If you sit in an exit row, you must be able to perform the duties required during an emergency. This is a federal law. Specifically: (b) No certificate holder may seat a person in a seat affected by this section if the certificate holder determines that it is likely that the person would be unable to perform one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section because -- (1) The person lacks sufficient mobility, strength, or dexterity in both arms and hands, and both legs: (i) To reach upward, sideways, and downward to the location of emergency exit and exit-slide operating mechanisms; (ii) To grasp and push, pull, turn, or otherwise manipulate those mechanisms; (iii) To push, shove, pull, or otherwise open emergency exits; (iv) To lift out, hold, deposit on nearby seats, or maneuver over the seatbacks to the next row objects the size and weight of over-wing window exit doors; (v) To remove obstructions similar in size and weight to over-wing exit doors; (vi) To reach the emergency exit expeditiously; (vii) To maintain balance while removing obstructions; (viii) To exit expeditiously; (ix) To stabilize an escape slide after deployment; or (x) To assist others in getting off an escape slide; (2) The person is less than 15 years of age or lacks the capacity to perform one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section without the assistance of an adult companion, parent, or other relative; (3) The person lacks the ability to read and understand instructions required by this section and related to emergency evacuation provided by the certificate holder in printed or graphic form or the ability to understand oral crew commands. (4) The person lacks sufficient visual capacity to perform one or more of the applicable functions in paragraph (d) of this section without the assistance of visual aids beyond contact lenses or eyeglasses; (5) The person lacks sufficient aural capacity to hear and understand instructions shouted by flight attendants, without assistance beyond a hearing aid; (6) The person lacks the ability adequately to impart information orally to other passengers; or, (7) The person has: (i) A condition or responsibilities, such as caring for small children, that might prevent the person from performing one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section; or (ii) A condition that might cause the person harm if he or she performs one or more of the applicable functions listed in paragraph (d) of this section. __________________ Jet Delta's Big Flies

04-06-2002, 04:47 PM	#3
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	Well researched, Gabby! Most airlines brief passengers of their added responsibilities and will reseat customers unable or unwilling to comply. __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

04-06-2002, 06:45 PM	#5
Clip Model Goddess Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 37 Posts: 1,313	Justin, That all depends. Could these passengers have been seated in the BULKHEAD, and not strictly an emergency row? In some aircraft, depending on the configuration, the bulkhead and the exit row are the same. However, in many aircraft the bulkhead is NOT an emergency row and elderly and disabled people are seated there purposely. In most instances, the bulkhead is blocked out and cannot be requested. Many airlines will give these seats to elderly and disabled people, or passengers traveling with kids, for ease and comfort. I'm also curious about how you define elderly and disabled. It has been my experience that airlines enforce the exit row requirement very proactively. They have to -- or face a fine for violating an FAR. I'm interested in knowing more about your particular experience. __________________ Jet Delta's Big Flies

04-06-2002, 10:55 PM	#6
DeltaFlot The Patriot Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Laurel, MD Age: 36 Posts: 3,228	I have to agree with Justinon this one, i have seen little old ladies, and old men that look like that couldn't lift themselves let alone an emergency door placed in Emergency row seats. Next Time, I am going to make a fuss. __________________ Febuary 15, 1898 December 7, 1941 June 8, 1967 September 11, 2001 Never Forget, Never Forgive If you kick the Tiger in the arse, you better be able to deal with the Tiger's teeth.

04-06-2002, 05:20 PM	#4
justin Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,005	Thanx for the info!! So it would appear that when I see disabled or very old people in those seats somebody has made an oversight. Justin

04-06-2002, 10:58 PM	#7
Clip Model Goddess Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 37 Posts: 1,313	I'm not disagreeing with Justin at all. I just want a little bit more info and was thinking he was confusing bulkhead seating with exit row seating. That's all. __________________ Jet Delta's Big Flies

04-06-2002, 11:19 PM	#8
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	I notice that Justin lives in the UK. Could it be that the FAA equivalent in the UK and European countries (note I did not say "UK and OTHER European countries) have different regs? __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

04-07-2002, 12:04 AM	#9
Clip Model Goddess Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Portland, Oregon Age: 37 Posts: 1,313	Good point, Scott. I would think they would be similar, but I honestly don't know. __________________ Jet Delta's Big Flies

04-07-2002, 05:57 AM	#10
justin Insane Collector Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 2,005	Hi Clip and others, I was talking about the overwing escape hatches. Those doors are surprisingly heavy, and I'd guess many people would be surprised if they had to open them. I fly a lot in Asia and the mid East, and it is in the mid East I've mainly seen this, although I'll be honest and say I've seen it once in a KLM 737-800 once too on a Athens - Amsterdam flight. If elderly people are still physically fit I see no real problem, but when they are very obviously infirm and need a f/a to help them down the aisle I find it worrying. To be honest, having flown so much in the mid East, my view is that if their is a hard landing you may as well just accept you're going to die, I hope this does not sound arrogant in any way but their is no way a 100 or more Egyptian's or whatever would be evacuated as they'd just l make a run together and jam the plane up, and the ones not fighting to get into the aisles would be standing up trying to get their stuff out of lockers and stuff. Like I say, I know this sounds terrible, but I demand a seat next to a door so I can get out as I just don't feel safe in a centre seat over there. Justin

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