Last of the Flight Engineers--A sign of the times

Javier · 03-06-2002, 02:43 PM

As 727s retire, so do their flight engineers
Once crucial, they're being phased out
By KATIE FAIRBANK
The Dallas (TX) Morning News

Rich Royals remembers the days when it took several fuel stops for an
airliner to reach its destination, airports had no security, and water
lines froze on unheated planes.

Over 47 years at American Airlines Inc., he watched the airline industry
change and monitored aircraft systems from a third seat in the cockpit
on seven types of planes. Soon, though, American will retire the last
aircraft in its fleet that holds a spot for him.

So, the 70-year-old professional flight engineer said he thinks he'll be
retiring himself when American parks its Boeing 727s on April 30.

"Time moves on," said Mr. Royals.

He and other professional flight engineers are quickly becoming symbols
of a bygone era - nonpilots flying in the cockpit.

In the old days, the flight engineer was often an airplane and
power-plant mechanic who would perform maintenance on aircraft when they
landed in small cities and far-flung locales.

"You were dealing with a different breed that [knew] the guts of the
aircraft," said Allen Brock, one of the last 727 captains for American.
"They were always the first person you saw, and they were tremendous
people to work with, with great attitudes."

Today, flight engineers keep an eye on aircraft systems, including
pressurization and hydraulics. But on newer aircraft, technology and
automated equipment handle such tasks.

The trend toward using machines to do the flight engineer's job began in
the 1970s when flight computers were introduced. Since then, they have
taken over many of the duties that had traditionally fallen to the
flight engineer.

Shrinking numbers

Airlines saw savings on weight and salary costs if they bought aircraft
with only a two-person pilot crew and no flight engineer. Before long
"three-holer" aircraft were no longer purchased.

"What it amounts to is economics. It is considerably cheaper to operate
with two people instead of three," said David Dean, a senior career
counselor at AIR Inc., an Atlanta-based company that specializes in
pilot career consulting.

Now that older aircraft with three seats in the cockpit are rapidly
being retired, flight engineers are bordering on becoming anachronisms.

About 20 years ago, flight engineers made up about 25 percent of the
flight crews, while pilots were the remaining 75 percent.

The number of flight engineers dropped to about 6 percent the last time
a study was done, said Kit Darby, AIR's president.

Retiring planes, people

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks brought a steep decline in passenger
traffic. Many carriers downsized their fleets, reducing the number of
older jets and flight engineers even further.

"Now it's 1 or 2 percent," Mr. Darby said.

Executives at Continental Airlines Inc. and United Airlines Inc. phased
out their three-seat aircraft in October. United saw a number of flight
engineers retire then.

About 250 to 350 flight engineers with pilot credentials had to retire
because they were too old to work as captain or first officer, Mr. Darby
said.

"They're all gone. All those pilots were retired as other pilots were
furloughed," he said.

Northwest Airlines Inc. also no longer has any professional flight
engineers on its rolls. "We ... haven't had for some time," said
spokeswoman Kathy Peach.

At Delta Air Lines Inc., professional flight engineers will have seats
in 727 cockpits until the end of next year, when the Atlanta-based
carrier retires the last of the aircraft.

Spokesman Anthony Black said there are fewer than 100 professional
flight engineers and "most are above the age of retirement."

At American, only three professional flight engineers remain. Mr. Royals
is 70 years old, and his two peers are 75.

Professional flight engineers have been able to fly for so long because
the Federal Aviation Administration does not require retirement at age
60, as it does for pilots. Instead, professional flight engineers are
allowed to fly as long as they pass their physicals and the company has
jobs for them.

This is not the first time that the cockpit crew has been downsized.
Navigators once were needed for long-haul flights, but progress
eliminated those jobs as well.

"For years they said, 'You can't do without us. You'd get lost without
us.' But of course, automation moved on," said Mr. Dean, who flew with
professional flight engineers at United Parcel Service Inc. "The
engineers are in the same boat. We'll see the engineers all gone at some
point."

As one person after another loses a seat in cockpits, some pilots joke
that they, too, are in danger of seeing their ranks decline.

Some day, instead of two pilots in the cockpit, they say, there will be
a pilot and a dog. The pilot's assignment will be feeding the dog.

And the dog? Well, it's there to bite the pilot if he or she dares to
touch the controls.

The departure of flight engineers and navigators shows that anything is
possible. Only a few scattered passenger, charter and cargo airlines
continue to fly with professional flight engineers.

"It's already very few," said Mr. Darby. "It's going to go away sometime
soon."

RARE BIRDS

Flight engineers monitor electrical, hydraulics, pressurization,
air-conditioning systems and engine indicators. They also keep an eye on
engine performance while managing fuel burn and keeping log sheets.
Airlines' flight engineers:

Airline Flight engineers
Alaska 0
American 3
Continental 0
Delta {lt}100*
Northwest 0
Southwest 0
United 0
US Airways 0
*Airline was not more specific

SOURCE: Dallas Morning News research

smoothjazz · 03-06-2002, 06:04 PM

That's sad too... what other job position can they take in the
airlines?

Cadavre on a stick · 03-06-2002, 08:16 PM

Doesn't the 737-100/200 have a flight engineer? If so, I guess WN uses First Officers or Captains as flight engineers, no?

TZTriStar500 · 03-06-2002, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cadavre on a stick
Doesn't the 737-100/200 have a flight engineer? If so, I guess WN uses First Officers or Captains as flight engineers, no?

No FE's on any 737. The 727-100/200, 747-100/200 and I think the 300, all DC10 series, all L-1011 series, all DC-8 series, all 707 series have FE positions.

Spectre · 03-06-2002, 11:18 PM

its an end of an era... We FEs knew it was comming... we still hold the pride of having the knowledge on the plane.... but computers can do the job better

when the computers have power

I am just glad the military still uses them......................but for how long?? time will tell

Ozz · 03-06-2002, 11:30 PM

It will be a sad day indeed, when all the plumbers are gone.

Scott · 03-07-2002, 12:24 AM

It's a sad day because the 3-holers days are almost at end. Yet, the F.E. job is icky!! I did it for nearly 6 excruciatingly long months and NEVER looked back with fondness. Still, there is much nostalgia among the older gentlemen who gently caress the switches and knobs. FYI, the 737-100 and -200 had the engineer position for a short time. A classic struggle between ALPA which insisted on the need vs the airlines and Boeing who knew better. (you won't hear me saying that often) The engineer sat in what is now the "fold-up" jumpseat immediately forward of the cockpit entry door. Duties included pre-flight, performance computations, visually watching traffic, and monitoring the overhead panel.

Travis Campbell · 03-07-2002, 08:20 PM

I have to disagree with the Northwest numbers. Northwest still operates their 727's, 747 classics, and DC-10-30's and DC-10-40's. Can someone else sit in that position and have those duties and not be labelled a flight engineer?

pi737 · 03-07-2002, 11:16 PM

I was a 727 F/E for a year. I didn't want it when I got hired by PI, but now I'm glad I have the ticket. I can't say I enjoyed the job much. It was hard watching the other two have all of the fun.

Tony

p.s. Piedmont's only labor strike was over the S/O on the 737. My Dad was a ticket agent then and was out of work for a few weeks.

Scott · 03-08-2002, 01:55 AM

The 727 required a REAL engineer. What's the difference between a dog and a DC-10 engineer? The dog sleeps under the table!

pi737 · 03-08-2002, 11:44 AM

Hey Scott-My friend was a DC-8 F/E. He said the same thing about 727 F/Es!

Tony

Scott · 03-08-2002, 05:23 PM

Hey Tony; does that mean the "push-pull" cable driven DC-8 is more complex than the 727? Could be!! Good luck with a "brain transplant" at USAirways!! You can only hope wolf is slowly fading into oblivion. Is he almost eligible for Social Security?

pi737 · 03-08-2002, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the luck wish Scott. Maybe now Wolf will step out of HQ long enough for someone to run over him with a truck. Sounds like Mr. Siegal may be interested in actually running an airline-novel idea.
Good luck to you guys too.

Tony

hernan · 03-09-2002, 11:33 PM

Pan am still operates the 727. and now they bough more.

03-06-2002, 02:43 PM	#1
Javier Collector Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: WASHINGTON, D.C. Posts: 148	Last of the Flight Engineers--A sign of the times As 727s retire, so do their flight engineers Once crucial, they're being phased out By KATIE FAIRBANK The Dallas (TX) Morning News Rich Royals remembers the days when it took several fuel stops for an airliner to reach its destination, airports had no security, and water lines froze on unheated planes. Over 47 years at American Airlines Inc., he watched the airline industry change and monitored aircraft systems from a third seat in the cockpit on seven types of planes. Soon, though, American will retire the last aircraft in its fleet that holds a spot for him. So, the 70-year-old professional flight engineer said he thinks he'll be retiring himself when American parks its Boeing 727s on April 30. "Time moves on," said Mr. Royals. He and other professional flight engineers are quickly becoming symbols of a bygone era - nonpilots flying in the cockpit. In the old days, the flight engineer was often an airplane and power-plant mechanic who would perform maintenance on aircraft when they landed in small cities and far-flung locales. "You were dealing with a different breed that [knew] the guts of the aircraft," said Allen Brock, one of the last 727 captains for American. "They were always the first person you saw, and they were tremendous people to work with, with great attitudes." Today, flight engineers keep an eye on aircraft systems, including pressurization and hydraulics. But on newer aircraft, technology and automated equipment handle such tasks. The trend toward using machines to do the flight engineer's job began in the 1970s when flight computers were introduced. Since then, they have taken over many of the duties that had traditionally fallen to the flight engineer. Shrinking numbers Airlines saw savings on weight and salary costs if they bought aircraft with only a two-person pilot crew and no flight engineer. Before long "three-holer" aircraft were no longer purchased. "What it amounts to is economics. It is considerably cheaper to operate with two people instead of three," said David Dean, a senior career counselor at AIR Inc., an Atlanta-based company that specializes in pilot career consulting. Now that older aircraft with three seats in the cockpit are rapidly being retired, flight engineers are bordering on becoming anachronisms. About 20 years ago, flight engineers made up about 25 percent of the flight crews, while pilots were the remaining 75 percent. The number of flight engineers dropped to about 6 percent the last time a study was done, said Kit Darby, AIR's president. Retiring planes, people The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks brought a steep decline in passenger traffic. Many carriers downsized their fleets, reducing the number of older jets and flight engineers even further. "Now it's 1 or 2 percent," Mr. Darby said. Executives at Continental Airlines Inc. and United Airlines Inc. phased out their three-seat aircraft in October. United saw a number of flight engineers retire then. About 250 to 350 flight engineers with pilot credentials had to retire because they were too old to work as captain or first officer, Mr. Darby said. "They're all gone. All those pilots were retired as other pilots were furloughed," he said. Northwest Airlines Inc. also no longer has any professional flight engineers on its rolls. "We ... haven't had for some time," said spokeswoman Kathy Peach. At Delta Air Lines Inc., professional flight engineers will have seats in 727 cockpits until the end of next year, when the Atlanta-based carrier retires the last of the aircraft. Spokesman Anthony Black said there are fewer than 100 professional flight engineers and "most are above the age of retirement." At American, only three professional flight engineers remain. Mr. Royals is 70 years old, and his two peers are 75. Professional flight engineers have been able to fly for so long because the Federal Aviation Administration does not require retirement at age 60, as it does for pilots. Instead, professional flight engineers are allowed to fly as long as they pass their physicals and the company has jobs for them. This is not the first time that the cockpit crew has been downsized. Navigators once were needed for long-haul flights, but progress eliminated those jobs as well. "For years they said, 'You can't do without us. You'd get lost without us.' But of course, automation moved on," said Mr. Dean, who flew with professional flight engineers at United Parcel Service Inc. "The engineers are in the same boat. We'll see the engineers all gone at some point." As one person after another loses a seat in cockpits, some pilots joke that they, too, are in danger of seeing their ranks decline. Some day, instead of two pilots in the cockpit, they say, there will be a pilot and a dog. The pilot's assignment will be feeding the dog. And the dog? Well, it's there to bite the pilot if he or she dares to touch the controls. The departure of flight engineers and navigators shows that anything is possible. Only a few scattered passenger, charter and cargo airlines continue to fly with professional flight engineers. "It's already very few," said Mr. Darby. "It's going to go away sometime soon." RARE BIRDS Flight engineers monitor electrical, hydraulics, pressurization, air-conditioning systems and engine indicators. They also keep an eye on engine performance while managing fuel burn and keeping log sheets. Airlines' flight engineers: Airline Flight engineers Alaska 0 American 3 Continental 0 Delta {lt}100* Northwest 0 Southwest 0 United 0 US Airways 0 *Airline was not more specific SOURCE: Dallas Morning News research

03-06-2002, 06:04 PM	#2
smoothjazz More Korean Air in 1/200! Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: SEOUL KOREA Posts: 6,363	That's sad too... what other job position can they take in the airlines? __________________ BENJAMIN MY COLLECTION http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...tion-1179.html

03-06-2002, 11:18 PM	#5
Spectre Insane Collector Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryville, TN Age: 35 Posts: 1,421	its an end of an era... We FEs knew it was comming... we still hold the pride of having the knowledge on the plane.... but computers can do the job better when the computers have power I am just glad the military still uses them......................but for how long?? time will tell __________________ My collection is for sale...please look "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a special meaning the protected will never know."

03-06-2002, 11:30 PM	#6
Ozz Insane Collector Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada (CYVR) Age: 51 Posts: 2,763	It will be a sad day indeed, when all the plumbers are gone. __________________ Ozz ORANGE IS BEAUTIFUL *GO WESTJET!!!* We need more CPAir/CDN and don't forget PWA and BA Landor!

03-07-2002, 12:24 AM	#7
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	It's a sad day because the 3-holers days are almost at end. Yet, the F.E. job is icky!! I did it for nearly 6 excruciatingly long months and NEVER looked back with fondness. Still, there is much nostalgia among the older gentlemen who gently caress the switches and knobs. FYI, the 737-100 and -200 had the engineer position for a short time. A classic struggle between ALPA which insisted on the need vs the airlines and Boeing who knew better. (you won't hear me saying that often) The engineer sat in what is now the "fold-up" jumpseat immediately forward of the cockpit entry door. Duties included pre-flight, performance computations, visually watching traffic, and monitoring the overhead panel. __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

03-06-2002, 08:16 PM	#3
Cadavre on a stick Master Collector Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Sin Jose, Ca. USA Posts: 632	Doesn't the 737-100/200 have a flight engineer? If so, I guess WN uses First Officers or Captains as flight engineers, no?

03-07-2002, 08:20 PM	#8
Travis Campbell Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Detroit, Michigan (Roughly) Age: 27 Posts: 1,067	I have to disagree with the Northwest numbers. Northwest still operates their 727's, 747 classics, and DC-10-30's and DC-10-40's. Can someone else sit in that position and have those duties and not be labelled a flight engineer?

03-07-2002, 11:16 PM	#9
pi737 Collector Join Date: May 2000 Location: Jamestown, NC USA Age: 43 Posts: 138	I was a 727 F/E for a year. I didn't want it when I got hired by PI, but now I'm glad I have the ticket. I can't say I enjoyed the job much. It was hard watching the other two have all of the fun. Tony p.s. Piedmont's only labor strike was over the S/O on the 737. My Dad was a ticket agent then and was out of work for a few weeks. Last edited by pi737; 03-07-2002 at 11:18 PM.

03-08-2002, 01:55 AM	#10
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	The 727 required a REAL engineer. What's the difference between a dog and a DC-10 engineer? The dog sleeps under the table! __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

03-08-2002, 11:44 AM	#11
pi737 Collector Join Date: May 2000 Location: Jamestown, NC USA Age: 43 Posts: 138	Hey Scott-My friend was a DC-8 F/E. He said the same thing about 727 F/Es! Tony

03-08-2002, 05:23 PM	#12
Scott Insane Collector Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Escondido, Ca. USA Age: 50 Posts: 2,763	Hey Tony; does that mean the "push-pull" cable driven DC-8 is more complex than the 727? Could be!! Good luck with a "brain transplant" at USAirways!! You can only hope wolf is slowly fading into oblivion. Is he almost eligible for Social Security? __________________ Fly the Friendly Skies of United uniTED takes wing Feb 12, 2004

03-08-2002, 11:00 PM	#13
pi737 Collector Join Date: May 2000 Location: Jamestown, NC USA Age: 43 Posts: 138	Thanks for the luck wish Scott. Maybe now Wolf will step out of HQ long enough for someone to run over him with a truck. Sounds like Mr. Siegal may be interested in actually running an airline-novel idea. Good luck to you guys too. Tony

03-09-2002, 11:33 PM	#14
hernan Senior Collector Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: CAROLINA,PUERTO RICO Age: 42 Posts: 426	Pan am still operates the 727. and now they bough more. __________________ FLY SOUTHWEST. THE ONLY WAY TO FLY ! COLLECT STAR JETS. THE BEST MODELS!

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