Troubles at AMR

Testpilot · 10-02-2012, 11:31 PM

Well have you been keeping up with news lately. American Airlines once at the top is falling quickly. The latest with the unbolted seats and all the delays.

Who wants to fly American Airlines? - CNN.com

Second Set of Seats Comes Loose During American Airlines Flight - ABC News

neilc777 · 10-03-2012, 03:27 AM

These things will happen at an airline when 4600 mechanics and inspectors get a pink slip. As someone in the Mx industry who has been furloughed twice - it's not as easy as you think to focus on the job when you know your paycheck will be 100% smaller in a couple months. You're more worried about how you're going to pay your mortgage and bills than you are worried about making sure you nail all the seats down to the floor track. That said, one should always take pride in their work while they are still getting a pay check.

KLM4me · 10-03-2012, 12:57 PM

And yet another incident.

American Airlines Passengers Told to Brace for Crash-Landing After Another Maintenance Scare - Yahoo!

D-AIHK · 10-03-2012, 04:19 PM

perhaps a merger with IAG will do the trick!

LH B747-430 · 10-03-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-AIHK

perhaps a merger with IAG will do the trick!

IAG is not profitable either.. ..or do you mean AA should be handled like BMI?

jetbluefan · 10-03-2012, 07:17 PM

Don't get me started...... AA was perfectly fine in my opinion when I flew with them in August. Then, they went downhill less than a month later..

beltloader · 10-03-2012, 07:21 PM

it was a third party mech. company that did the 757's basically AA outsourced the mechanical duties instead of doing it with their own mechanics...a very sad move by amr

SPEEDEMON · 10-03-2012, 08:16 PM

As most of the companies these days, cheap labor adds up to cheap work = costly at the end as it's living on life support!

gabe4321 · 10-03-2012, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beltloader

it was a third party mech. company that did the 757's basically AA outsourced the mechanical duties instead of doing it with their own mechanics...a very sad move by amr

All major airlines in the US are doing this.

neilc777 · 10-03-2012, 10:35 PM

AA used to do all their own maintenance. I see the transition to contractors isn't going too well. Good. Airline execs need to learn the hard way that when it comes to aircraft maintenance, you get what you pay for. If you send your jet to Guadalajara for "overhaul" - don't be too surprised to find missing insulation, wire nuts, rubber nutted bolts, O2 generators that are expired or still safety pinned, not to mention cracks and/or severe corrosion on your plane when it returns...if it returns. One of our MD90s came off jacks at a contract maintenance facility and had to be written off.

The last thing AA needs right now is this bad press. The funny thing is, as bad a decision it was to outsource - I guarantee you that someone got a bonus and/or a raise for getting that deal done.

gabe4321 · 10-03-2012, 10:45 PM

Airline execs are looking out for the bottom dollar. Put it this way. some companies around $75.00 an hour for labor for their contract work, something that they want to do to make money. Thats high in the ailine industry. Automobile labor is usually around $100.00 plus. To me that seems alittle crazy. At least a car can pull of to the side of the road. Some companies send there MD88 to Guadalajara for their overhauls. I have been there on out of town trips to do some work that they are not allowed to do. The companies do uave their own inspectors checking some of the work. We have had over wing emerg. exits sealed on the outside, plane needing 4 units of aileron trim to fly straight and also needed 80% power to get the plane rolling because the brake cables tensions where double what they should of been. Our maint. director said that there is a learning curve and to give them time. What happens if one becomes a lawn dart? Dont get me wrong, there are contract compaines in the US also with no licesnce workers and doing shotty work.

beltloader · 10-03-2012, 10:55 PM

....like they put the seat clamps the wrong way

im pretty much sure the instructions where not written in a foreign language..

gabe4321 · 10-03-2012, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beltloader

....like they put the seat clamps the wrong way

im pretty much sure the instructions where not written in a foreign language..

Well a seat can be put in wrong and might look like its in right, if your not to familiar with them. Also if the maint. was done on the line its not a RII item so no inspector was needed to look at it. Usually most Line work is not always 100 percent buyback from an inspector. But in the Hangar it is 100 percent.

neilc777 · 10-04-2012, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe4321

Well a seat can be put in wrong and might look like its in right, if your not to familiar with them. Also if the maint. was done on the line its not a RII item so no inspector was needed to look at it. At least at Delta Line work is not always 100 percent buyback from an inspector. But in the Hangar it is 100 percent.

Hey Gabe. In the hangar, inspection buyback isn't really 100%, even with with customer aircraft. On Delta planes, it depends on if the aircraft is tagged and what is or isn't tagged for inspection. If say you're doing a triple gear change, the airplane is usually just tagged for gear. So if you're working on something else and it's not RII, the inspection block can be signed by another qualified mechanic. That can, and has, lead to trouble in the past. In contracts, which is where I work, it's about 99.9% buyback. I had one of those 0.1% jobs tonight. I put in some GFI relays for the fuel boost pumps and ops checked. The inspector did a double take when he saw my card, an AD related SFAR88 card, with no inspection blocks. I expect to see that card again soon and I'm sure it'll have have drawn lines where the inspection block would normally be. Fuel boost pumps are RII, after all.

I've got some horror stories about the work being done in Mexico. I won't divulge those here. I agree about the seats. Maybe its my OCD that kicks in, but after doing seat installs, I'll go back thru and double check all the seats with a good firm shake. Found quite a few not fully installed and usually its the star nut on the front leg that's not all the way down.

Where do you work Gabe?

neilc777 · 10-04-2012, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe4321

Airline execs are looking out for the bottom dollar. Put it this way. Delta charges around $75.00 an hour for labor for their contract work, something that they want to do to make money. Thats high in the ailine industry. Automobile labor is usually around $100.00 plus. To me that seems alittle crazy. At least a car can pull of to the side of the road. Delta does send its MD88 to Guadalajara for their overhauls. I have been there on out of town trips to do some work that they are not allowed to do. Their are Delta inspectors checking some of the work. We have had over wing emerg. exits sealed on the outside, plane needing 4 units of aileron trim to fly straight and also needed 80% power to get the plane rolling because the brake cables tensions where double what they should of been. Our maint. director said that there is a learning curve and to give them time. What happens if one becomes a lawn dart? Dont get me wrong, there are contract compaines in the US also with no licesnce workers and doing shotty work.

True. It's not just Mexico. AAR Miami is just as bad.

D-AIHK · 10-04-2012, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LH B747-430

IAG is not profitable either.. ..or do you mean AA should be handled like BMI?

As much as IAG is not profitable either, at least it's safer. BMI was a mess before LH took it over and now it's history.

By mergering AA with IAG, it would bring stability, and the assumption would be that there would be consolidated cost savings without compromising aircraft safety.

gabe4321 · 10-04-2012, 07:04 AM

Hey Neil, I work at Atlanta biggest airline going in 21 years. Work in overhaul at first on L1011's, Boston line, then sheetmetal shop and now in 251 DNTC. Back when I work in overhaul in 92 it was 100% but that was a long time ago. Lol. The policies have changed so much it's hard to know what depts do what. We only need inspectors on RII stuff. How about you where do you work?

LH B747-430 · 10-04-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-AIHK

As much as IAG is not profitable either, at least it's safer. BMI was a mess before LH took it over and now it's history.

By mergering AA with IAG, it would bring stability, and the assumption would be that there would be consolidated cost savings without compromising aircraft safety.

Now it's getting intersting - so you say that the situation for the AA maintenance engineers will improve when they merge with a non-profitable alliance that is currently consolidating three non-profitable carriers. Please explain this to me.. It wasn't just joy that Iberia established Iberia Express - A lowcost airline in Europe.. They were about to went under if they didn't! Look at what LH will do next year: LH will give up all, yes: ALL bases/hubs in Germany/Europe except FRA and MUC and will replace the feeder flights with a new lowcost carrier called Direct4U, most of the LH narrowbodies will be transferred from LH's fleet..

Do you really think that European carriers have the capacity to consolidate AA???

Look at AF/KL: When AZ was in trouble AF/KL couldn't take them over either, because the two carriers needed to consolidate themselves first - they still try to become profitable by the way.. There is no "too big to fail" with airlines - look at the recent developments.. AZ merged with AP, which was only option to stay alive with a reduced fleet..

beltloader · 10-04-2012, 04:40 PM

there was a speculation/rumours before that BA wants to merge with AA but that went out the door quickly...givin the geography and politics between the two airlines even though they are one world partners i dont think it would be a good idea...IMHO if ever AA will merge with another company, US airways would be a good candidate keep it within north america. As far as feeder airlines goes American Eagle are just doing fine feeding the main lines they are also affected with AMR's Chapter 11 but not to the extent of american's pilots,fa's and mechanics being disgruntled. AE has their own pilots and mechanics to worry about.

fazeman · 10-04-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LH B747-430

Now it's getting intersting - so you say that the situation for the AA maintenance engineers will improve when they merge with a non-profitable alliance that is currently consolidating three non-profitable carriers. Please explain this to me.. It wasn't just joy that Iberia established Iberia Express - A lowcost airline in Europe.. They were about to went under if they didn't! Look at what LH will do next year: LH will give up all, yes: ALL bases/hubs in Germany/Europe except FRA and MUC and will replace the feeder flights with a new lowcost carrier called Direct4U, most of the LH narrowbodies will be transferred from LH's fleet..

Do you really think that European carriers have the capacity to consolidate AA???

Look at AF/KL: When AZ was in trouble AF/KL couldn't take them over either, because the two carriers needed to consolidate themselves first - they still try to become profitable by the way.. There is no "too big to fail" with airlines - look at the recent developments.. AZ merged with AP, which was only option to stay alive with a reduced fleet..

Quote:

Originally Posted by beltloader

there was a speculation/rumours before that BA wants to merge with AA but that went out the door quickly...givin the geography and politics between the two airlines even though they are one world partners i dont think it would be a good idea...IMHO if ever AA will merge with another company, US airways would be a good candidate keep it within north america. As far as feeder airlines goes American Eagle are just doing fine feeding the main lines they are also affected with AMR's Chapter 11 but not to the extent of american's pilots,fa's and mechanics being disgruntled. AE has their own pilots and mechanics to worry about.

Current U.S. "open skies" policy will not allow a foreign airline to own more than 25% voting shares in a U.S. airline. While EU aviation policy allows 49% ownership by a non-European airline, the EU will not succeed in convincing the U.S. Congress to accept simular ownership rules.

Another aviation policy of great concern is that of unfair practices in the aviation industry. Among other EU airlines, LH has been vocal with their concerns about Middle Eastern and other world region airlines who are taking full advantage of outdated and ineffective unfair practice rules. These rules can be updated through bilateral and multilateral agreements but the EU is having a major problem in convincing countries like China and the U.S. to accept their carbon emissions trading scheme. This carbon emissions policy not only affects airline agreements, they will also affect Airbus.

LH B747-430 · 10-05-2012, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fazeman

Current U.S. "open skies" policy will not allow a foreign airline to own more than 25% voting shares in a U.S. airline. While EU aviation policy allows 49% ownership by a non-European airline, the EU will not succeed in convincing the U.S. Congress to accept simular ownership rules.

Another aviation policy of great concern is that of unfair practices in the aviation industry. Among other EU airlines, LH has been vocal with their concerns about Middle Eastern and other world region airlines who are taking full advantage of outdated and ineffective unfair practice rules. These rules can be updated through bilateral and multilateral agreements but the EU is having a major problem in convincing countries like China and the U.S. to accept their carbon emissions trading scheme. This carbon emissions policy not only affects airline agreements, they will also affect Airbus.

The same thing is done in America, nothing else.. (e.g. Gulf carriers are not allowed to get landing rights at specific airports to subsidize home-based carriers and many more) US airlines and European airlines are sitting in one boat - everything else is pure populism, which is not worth answering! The airlines got the message and started consolidating their fleets and services 3-4 years ago, the problem in the US is that the carriers are way larger than European airlines and the impact of the US crisis that enlarged into a worldwide economic crisis is harder for them therefore.. They need to be profitable again, but with less people flying or flying in less expensive classes they are in serious trouble. Serving many domestic routes that were hardly profitable in good times, brakes their necks now.. Plus they need to place large orders in hard times because they waited too long with fleet renewal programs! Let's keep the example LH - The short haul fleets got shrinked, but renewed - all 737 classics are currently phased-out, The regional fleet has been reduced to only two types (E-Jest and CRJs) - more planes left than were ordered - code share contracts have not been renewed (Contact Air). No new orders will be placed. LH will set up a new low-cost carrier as stated above.. The long-haul fleet was upgraded, but not enlarged - A343, A306 completely, B744 left or are leaving the fleet - The First Class will be reduced or cancelled on the new interior configurations. That process has been started over 5 years ago and leaves LH with very young state-of-the-art aircraft.. By the way - LH owns their planes and does not need to lease them like US carriers.. When do you think AA will get there? It's not a surprise that we've had to wait that long until we see a US carrier operating B77W or B788 or forcing Boeing to set up an upgraded B737.. Who are the launch carriers for new aircraft? No US airlines even for the government-subsidized program of the B737-MAX which is Lion Air or others: B748- LH, B788- ANA, B789- ANZ, C-Series: LH/LX, A350: QR A388: SQ... America needs more competitive airlines than they currently have, Euope too, but it's easier here, because the airlines are simply smaller..

doug seeley · 10-05-2012, 05:38 AM

"America needs more competitive airlines than they currently have." That would be Southwest Airlines. Seems to me that their competitive strategy is working better than the rest. Virgin America doing fairly well, Jet Blue may be struggling a bit. I think American Airlines as we know it will not survive. This is an informative thread and there seem to be some knowledgeable people contributing. Thanks, Doug

JAL1628 · 10-05-2012, 02:55 PM

W/ re: to the seats/fastener issue.. AMR still has responsibility for the QA buyoff on all outsourced work... That's true for anything in aerospace.

I approached AMR a couple years ago about becoming a supplier. I supply them with components indirectly through Boeing, but I'm also licensed by Boeing & the FAA to sell direct. They are identical items for less $$$. AMR had no patience to work with me. It is my opinion the management culture there is rotten, at least in purchasing.

I love the American Airlines livery and I wish them the best. I would hate to see that disappear from the skies.

fazeman · 10-05-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LH B747-430

The same thing is done in America, nothing else.. (e.g. Gulf carriers are not allowed to get landing rights at specific airports to subsidize home-based carriers and many more) US airlines and European airlines are sitting in one boat - everything else is pure populism, which is not worth answering! The airlines got the message and started consolidating their fleets and services 3-4 years ago, the problem in the US is that the carriers are way larger than European airlines and the impact of the US crisis that enlarged into a worldwide economic crisis is harder for them therefore.. They need to be profitable again, but with less people flying or flying in less expensive classes they are in serious trouble. Serving many domestic routes that were hardly profitable in good times, brakes their necks now.. Plus they need to place large orders in hard times because they waited too long with fleet renewal programs! Let's keep the example LH - The short haul fleets got shrinked, but renewed - all 737 classics are currently phased-out, The regional fleet has been reduced to only two types (E-Jest and CRJs) - more planes left than were ordered - code share contracts have not been renewed (Contact Air). No new orders will be placed. LH will set up a new low-cost carrier as stated above.. The long-haul fleet was upgraded, but not enlarged - A343, A306 completely, B744 left or are leaving the fleet - The First Class will be reduced or cancelled on the new interior configurations. That process has been started over 5 years ago and leaves LH with very young state-of-the-art aircraft.. By the way - LH owns their planes and does not need to lease them like US carriers.. When do you think AA will get there? It's not a surprise that we've had to wait that long until we see a US carrier operating B77W or B788 or forcing Boeing to set up an upgraded B737.. Who are the launch carriers for new aircraft? No US airlines even for the government-subsidized program of the B737-MAX which is Lion Air or others: B748- LH, B788- ANA, B789- ANZ, C-Series: LH/LX, A350: QR A388: SQ... America needs more competitive airlines than they currently have, Euope too, but it's easier here, because the airlines are simply smaller..

Yeah, I agree. Brussels to push for EU-US airline mergers - FT.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAL1628

W/ re: to the seats/fastener issue.. AMR still has responsibility for the QA buyoff on all outsourced work... That's true for anything in aerospace.

I approached AMR a couple years ago about becoming a supplier. I supply them with components indirectly through Boeing, but I'm also licensed by Boeing & the FAA to sell direct. They are identical items for less $$$. AMR had no patience to work with me. It is my opinion the management culture there is rotten, at least in purchasing.

Management culture in purchasing can and will stink to the high heaven.

airwaysjack · 10-05-2012, 11:38 PM

The main problem with American seems to be their labor issues. It is a shame that they cannot reach a deal with their pilots, but one side will have to give.

neilc777 · 10-06-2012, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe4321

Hey Neil, I work at Atlanta biggest airline going in 21 years. Work in overhaul at first on L1011's, Boston line, then sheetmetal shop and now in 251 DNTC. Back when I work in overhaul in 92 it was 100% but that was a long time ago. Lol. The policies have changed so much it's hard to know what depts do what. We only need inspectors on RII stuff. How about you where do you work?

What a small world! I work one bay over from you in contract land. We probably know a bunch of the same people. Hired in '01 into 767 overhaul. Done a little of this and a little of that since. A bunch of people in our department recently got levelled into yours. The recent influx of contracts has management rethinking the wisdom of that move.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAL1628

W/ re: to the seats/fastener issue.. AMR still has responsibility for the QA buyoff on all outsourced work... That's true for anything in aerospace.

Ideally. But that's not reality. Is AA ultimately responsible for the quality of work getting done at outside repair stations? Absoluetely. Is AA's own QA department present at that facility buying back 100% of the work? Seriously doubt it.

I work at a US major which also happens to be in the MRO game with a fully certified FAR Part 145 Repair Station. All I work are these contracts. We use our own inspection department. Our customers have on-site reps but they are not part of the buyback process, and really aren't even part of the "quality" equation. If we put out a bad product, it's on us - not our customers. AA's seat snafu is on the company they paid to install the seats properly.

car15 · 10-06-2012, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc777

if we put out a bad product, it's on us - not our customers. Regulatory wise, it will be on you and your customer! aa's seat snafu is on the company they paid to install the seats properly.

Once again, regulatory wise, it is on AA and the company they contracted the work to!

gabe4321 · 10-07-2012, 03:06 PM

Neil don't bother trying to explain how the real world that we work in to some of these guys. They get all there info from google or Wikipedia and come on here like they are know it alls. Do you work midnights? Tonight is my Friday then off four. Just a reminder there is no wisdom in what management does. Hasn't in the 20 years I have been there. I am sure we have crossed paths before. So who do you know that came down to my side? You can PM me instead of dragging this thread on.

car15 · 10-07-2012, 04:56 PM

I will PM you too gabe! Maybe I can help you out with any regulatory (FAA) issues that you might need now or in the future or at least come to an understanding.

neilc777 · 10-07-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by car15

Once again, regulatory wise, it is on AA and the company they contracted the work to!

I already said that AA has the ultimate responsibility for the quality of maintenance on their planes, whether it's being done in-house or contracted. They made the decision to outsource, and that decision has already bit them in the butt.

What I was saying is that AA's own people(mechs and QA) were most likely not involved in the seat botch up. I'm quite sure there is language in the contract that the MRO would pay any FAA levied fine if the screwup is 100% on them(it was). The FAA could fine the MRO as well..or fine just the MRO. Don't think for one second that 3rd party repair stations get any free passes. The FAA could also come after the individuals who signed and bought off the work on the seats.

I do think there needs to be a larger FAA presence at these repair facilities as well as more regulation with maintenance outsourcing on the whole. A good start would be a 100% FAA license requirement to perform the work(not sign the work, perform the work). Right now, you're lucky if the "technicians" can read English, let alone have a license. It's a fricking joke.

It will take a major accident for any real change, sadly. In my opinion the FAA is like most government organizations - fat, dumb and lazy.

car15 · 10-07-2012, 05:43 PM

I completely agree with all that you wrote to include your last sentence! The politics/bureaucracy get in the way of the work of the good and experienced ASIs. In my opinion the FAA needs a complete overhaul! According to google and wikipedia of course! :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc777

I already said that AA has the ultimate responsibility for the quality of maintenance on their planes, whether it's being done in-house or contracted. They made the decision to outsource, and that decision has already bit them in the butt.

What I was saying is that AA's own people(mechs and QA) were most likely not involved in the seat botch up. I'm quite sure there is language in the contract that the MRO would pay any FAA levied fine if the screwup is 100% on them(it was). The FAA could fine the MRO as well..or fine just the MRO. Don't think for one second that 3rd party repair stations get any free passes. The FAA could also come after the individuals who signed and bought off the work on the seats.

I do think there needs to be a larger FAA presence at these repair facilities as well as more regulation with maintenance outsourcing on the whole. A good start would be a 100% FAA license requirement to perform the work(not sign the work, perform the work). Right now, you're lucky if the "technicians" can read English, let alone have a license. It's a fricking joke.

It will take a major accident for any real change, sadly. In my opinion the FAA is like most government organizations - fat, dumb and lazy.

neilc777 · 10-07-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by car15

I completely agree with all that you wrote to include your last sentence! The politics/bureaucracy get in the way of the work of the good and experienced ASIs. In my opinion the FAA needs a complete overhaul! According to google and wikipedia of course! :-)

I responded to your PM car15. Thanks for the insight.

gabe4321 · 10-08-2012, 01:19 AM

Hey car15, thanks for the info I responded also to the PM along with yours Neil.

car15 · 10-08-2012, 10:03 PM

Thank you Neil and Gabe for all that you do including helping to keep the flying public safe!

j.patroni · 10-11-2012, 06:00 AM

Just have to love the media on these types of stories .Bunch of tools !

wu6fiend · 10-13-2012, 02:37 PM

The last time I flew AA I swore it would be the LAST time.

Dirty airplane in poor repair, surly staff, jammed in like a sardine, looking at the bald spot of the idiot in the seat in front of me for the entire flight. The seat in front of me had a broken back that kept hanging down on my legs. I couldn't move for 5 hours, the seating was so tight (and I'm average height/weight).

I hope they go out of business.

A Tupolev · 10-14-2012, 02:53 AM

There's trouble at AMR?

neilc777 · 10-14-2012, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu6fiend

The last time I flew AA I swore it would be the LAST time.

Dirty airplane in poor repair, surly staff, jammed in like a sardine, looking at the bald spot of the idiot in the seat in front of me for the entire flight. The seat in front of me had a broken back that kept hanging down on my legs. I couldn't move for 5 hours, the seating was so tight (and I'm average height/weight).

I hope they go out of business.

FlyerTalk forums are thataway ---->>>

So you hope 80,000 people lose their jobs because you had to sit behind a bald guy?

Ya know...years ago, you'd pay $600-$1000 for a cross country round trip coach ticket. With that price, you got decent legroom, a meal, and usually great service. But over the last decade or two, we the traveling public have demanded uber-cheap fares. Well, we got what we asked for! If you get to your destination safely, chalk it up as a win. Bonus if you had WiFi and some inflight entertainment.

Pro tip: If you want more room, buy a First Class ticket. Cant afford one? Buy well in advance and book a bulkhead row or emergency exit row.

j.patroni · 10-14-2012, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilc777

FlyerTalk forums are thataway ---->>>

So you hope 80,000 people lose their jobs because you had to sit behind a bald guy?

Ya know...years ago, you'd pay $600-$1000 for a cross country round trip coach ticket. With that price, you got decent legroom, a meal, and usually great service. But over the last decade or two, we the traveling public have demanded uber-cheap fares. Well, we got what we asked for! If you get to your destination safely, chalk it up as a win. Bonus if you had WiFi and some inflight entertainment.

Pro tip: If you want more room, buy a First Class ticket. Cant afford one? Buy well in advance and book a bulkhead row or emergency exit row.

+1! Dead on and on some carriers you get to pay a little extra for some of those seats.
Amazing how something that was once a fun way to travel has turned into anything but and all in one generation I might add.